DesiringMore Posted January 21, 2004 Posted January 21, 2004 Is there any difference about the incarnation that Catholics and Protestants have? if so, what are they? and why? http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm The Incarnation implies three facts: (1) The Divine Person of Jesus Christ; (2) The Human Nature of Jesus Christ; (3) The Hypostatic Union of the Human with the Divine Nature in the Divine Person of Jesus Christ. i'm very interested in what everyone's thoughts are...
Jake Huether Posted January 21, 2004 Posted January 21, 2004 You might be hard pressed to find a general belief among Protestants. One of my wife's cousins believs that Jesus is to God as a cup is to water?? I suppose that way they can get away with the belief that Mary was NOT the mother of God, only of Jesus.
M.SIGGA Posted January 21, 2004 Posted January 21, 2004 you need to be more protestant specific (should be a dictionary term). Some are trinitarians etc. and others like some pentecostals and jwitnesses have different beliefs. Some oriental orthodox churches rooted in nestorianism have different beliefs too.
God Conquers Posted January 21, 2004 Posted January 21, 2004 Man, I didn't know those problems were still around. I thought they were dealt with long ago. I've heard of non-trinitarian Christians, but never of different opinions of Christ's nature. Don't most of the protestant churches follow the Nicene Creed?
phatcatholic Posted January 21, 2004 Posted January 21, 2004 Is there any difference about the incarnation that Catholics and Protestants have? if so, what are they? and why? http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm The Incarnation implies three facts: (1) The Divine Person of Jesus Christ; (2) The Human Nature of Jesus Christ; (3) The Hypostatic Union of the Human with the Divine Nature in the Divine Person of Jesus Christ. i'm very interested in what everyone's thoughts are... it's probably easier to just compare the catholic viewpoint w/ what YOU know or have been taught about the Incarnation. it is very difficult to generlize the "protestant" position...........and every time we try we are usually rebuked by an individual protestant or two who don't agree w/ our generalization. so, for the sake of clarity, what do you believe about the Incarnation? what have you been taught? once we know, then we can show u the differences between your belief and ours. thank you for your honest question, :D phatcatholic
Bruce S Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 90% view it identially. 80% don't believe in Transubstantiation. Some, use a funny term Consubstantiation, sort of "between" actual, and symbolic.
Jake Huether Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 90% view it identially. 80% don't believe in Transubstantiation. Some, use a funny term Consubstantiation, sort of "between" actual, and symbolic. 90% all Christians or just non-Catholics? And if 80% don't believe in Transubstantiation, then how on earth do you get your 90% figure above. If 80% don't believe in Transubstantiation, then even if they all agreed in symbolic, that still would be only 80% agreement. The other 20% doesn't even come close. Can you please clarify who you are refering to, and site sources. Thanks.
Circle_Master Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 Is there any difference about the incarnation that Catholics and Protestants have? if so, what are they? and why? http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm The Incarnation implies three facts: (1) The Divine Person of Jesus Christ; (2) The Human Nature of Jesus Christ; (3) The Hypostatic Union of the Human with the Divine Nature in the Divine Person of Jesus Christ. i'm very interested in what everyone's thoughts are... most protestant seminaries would agree with almost all of that. not really any issue
DesiringMore Posted January 22, 2004 Author Posted January 22, 2004 most protestant seminaries would agree with almost all of that. not really any issue almost all??? what does that mean??? i don't understand..b/c almost is NOT ALL.... one of the reasons i bring it up is b/c i was talking to some Catholics who thought that Protestants don't believe in the incarnation...i told them i would check around and see...but i could never find anything to say if Protestants fully believe....I personally...no, i'm not going to say what i personally believe....but i leave you with another question....for those that don't believe in all the incarnation...what parts and why? i am really interested!!!
phatcatholic Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 almost all??? what does that mean??? i don't understand..b/c almost is NOT ALL.... one of the reasons i bring it up is b/c i was talking to some Catholics who thought that Protestants don't believe in the incarnation...i told them i would check around and see...but i could never find anything to say if Protestants fully believe....I personally...no, i'm not going to say what i personally believe....but i leave you with another question....for those that don't believe in all the incarnation...what parts and why? i am really interested!!! well, catholics believe that any protestant who insists on referring to Mary as the "Mother of Jesus" instead of th e"Mother of God" is implicitly denying a key aspect of the Incarnation. to say that Mary is only the mother of Jesus is to deny the perfect existence of both human nature, and Godly or divine nature in the second person of the Holy Trinity. if, as a protestant, you firmly believe that Jesus is 100% human while he is at the same time 100% God, then it comes as a necessary and unescapable conclusion that Mary is the Mother of God. this may be what ur catholic friend was referring to.
God Conquers Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 Protestants don't believe in the INCARNATION? I don't think the people you were talking to know what the incarnation is.
Brother Adam Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 Okay, its time for the protestant to step in...*clears throat* If there is a Christian group out there that doesn't believe in the incarnation, they are labeled "false" by protestants. We don't consider mormons or JW's Christians like we view Lutherans or Calvinists or Baptists to all be Christian groups. The incarnation is a VERY basic and common belief of protestants. If you meet a protestant who doesn't believe in the incarnation, smack him for me.
DesiringMore Posted January 23, 2004 Author Posted January 23, 2004 if, as a protestant, you firmly believe that Jesus is 100% human while he is at the same time 100% God, then it comes as a necessary and unescapable conclusion that Mary is the Mother of God. i guess i have two questions that come to mind...first, if God has always existed, then how can he have a mother??...yet, b/c Jesus is 100% God and 100% human, how can mary not be the mother of God???....CRAZINESS!!!
phatcatholic Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 i guess i have two questions that come to mind...first, if God has always existed, then how can he have a mother??...yet, b/c Jesus is 100% God and 100% human, how can mary not be the mother of God???....CRAZINESS!!! it is a mystery in a sense, but there is also some logic behind it. afterall, how do we define motherhood? a woman is a mother not because of her age or because she came before you. afterall, ur sister could come before you or be older than you but not be ur mother. so what when do we call a "woman" a "mother"? when she gives birth to a person and provides half of their genetic matieral. Mary gave birth to Jesus. She actually gave him 100% of his genetic material (his human nature). Jesus is God. therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.
Bruce S Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 catholics believe that any protestant who insists on referring to Mary as the "Mother of Jesus" instead of th e"Mother of God" is implicitly denying a key aspect of the Incarnation. to say that Mary is only the mother of Jesus is to deny the perfect existence of both human nature, and Godly or divine nature in the second person of the Holy Trinity. Mary was a willing vessel and agent. Nothing more, nothing less. She is not divine, only a human, just like you ... she knowingly played out the role that she accepted. Most Protestants would say that the Marian devotions that are getting such emphasis in Catholicm diverts the DIRECT incercessary role Jesus assigned exclusively to himself.
Ellenita Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 Mary was a willing vessel and agent. Nothing more, nothing less. To reduce any woman to such a statement is an insult quite frankly! Mary has my undying respect and honour that she was completely and utterly obedient to God, particularly when she was being asked to do something that was so out of 'normal' human experience and would in all probability result in her being cast out from her community and all she had known. I wonder in all honesty how many of us would have responded so obediently....or maybe it's just me, aware that I want to be completely obedient to my God and yet with all my human fraility, all too often failing. Thank God, in His infinite wisdom and mercy, that He knew Mary would respond in the way she did. 'Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favoured, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?' Luke 1:41-42 NIV version.
PedroX Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 Bruce, Where you talking about the incarnation of Christ, or the Eucharistic Sacrifice? I have never met a Protestant (a true believer) who didn't believe in the incarnation as described in the original post. I know lots of them, across many denominations as I was one for 30 years. Although, finding some one who could define hypstatic union, might be a problem! peace...
Jake Huether Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 Mary was a willing vessel and agent. Nothing more, nothing less. She is not divine, only a human, just like you ... she knowingly played out the role that she accepted. Most Protestants would say that the Marian devotions that are getting such emphasis in Catholicm diverts the DIRECT incercessary role Jesus assigned exclusively to himself. I can't say for sure whether you're "saved" or not (I don't even know if I am). But, lets say you make it... I'm wondering if you'll have the guts to say this in front of Jesus, when He introduces you to His Mother, the Queen of Heaven. She is not divine, only a human, just like you No one here is saying she's divine, so I wish you would stop saying that. Most Protestants would say that the Marian devotions that are getting such emphasis in Catholicm diverts the DIRECT incercessary role Jesus assigned exclusively to himself. And a Catholic would ask you to show specifically where in the Bible Jesus assigns himself this role??? Mediation and intercession are two different things. St. Paul was the one who said that there is one mediator. And Jesus said no one can come to the Father except through me. And a Catholic wouldn't deny that. Mary is an intercessor and co-(not equal)mediator. When Mary prays for us (intercession) her prayers go to Jesus. So Jesus remains the ONE mediator between God and man. Look. I'll make it simple. man ------->Jesus------->God. Replace "man" with Jake. You don't have a problem right. Jake is a "man", and Jesus is the mediator. Well. What about... Jake------>Bruce------->Jesus-------->God. Does that still work?? I mean, I can ask you to pray for me right?? So, we just truncate me off, and it's still man ------->Jesus------->God, because Bruce is "man". Okay, so now, lets take that a step further... Jake--------->Mary--------->Jesus-------->God. Doesn't this work??? If I ask Mary to pray for me, it still goes to Jesus. And since Mary is "man", we can truncate me off again and it still is. man ------->Jesus------->God. Does that help. Now back to the topic at hand. Incarnation implies that God became man. And since Jesus is God, then explain how Mary is NOT the Mother of God?? First define "birth". Because I'll bet you think "birth" means something other than what a Catholic might think it to mean. There are different meanings. Second define "mother". Because as someone pointed out: Catholics understand that differently too. If birth means "giving human life" to something. And "mother" means to nurture and care for. Than Mary indeed is the Mother of God. She gave Him human flesh, and she also nurtured and cared for Him.
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