The Ancient Babylonians Created The Doctrine Of The Triune God

[catholic_apologetics]

John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.
1:2. The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that
was made.

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/78_references_and_illusions_to_the_trinity.htm"] 78 References and Illusions To The Trinity Found In The Sacred Scriptures[/url]

I. Even the Old Testament makes definite reference both to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 11:2 "...the Spirit ... the Lord ... Him"

Isaiah 42:1 "My Servant ... I ... My Spirit ... upon Him"

Isaiah 48:16 "The Lord God ... His Spirit ... sent Me"

Isaiah 61:1 "Spirit of the Lord God ... upon Me ... the Lord"

Isaiah 63:9 "He ...the Angel of His Presence ... His Holy Spirit"

II. Close examination of the following New Testament scriptures will make obvious to any student of the Bible that the doctrine of the Godhead is truth.

Matthew 1:20, 21 "the Lord (the Father) ... the Holy Spirit ... Jesus"

Matthew 3:16, 17 "Jesus ... the Spirit of God ... a Voice from heaven (the Father)"

Matthew 12:18 "I ... My Spirit ... on Him"

Matthew 22:42, 43 "Christ ... the Spirit ... Lord (the Father)"

Mark 1:9-11 "Jesus ... the Spirit ... a Voice from heaven ... My beloved Son"

Mark 12:35, 36 "Christ ... the Holy Spirit ... the Lord (the Father)"

Luke 1:35 "the Holy Spirit ... the Highest ... the Son of God"

Luke 2:26, 27 "the Holy Spirit ... Christ ... Jesus"

Luke 3:21, 22 "Jesus ... the Holy Spirit ... a Voice from heaven ... My beloved Son"

Luke 10:21 "Jesus ... the Spirit ... Father"

Luke 12:9, 10 "God ... the Son ... the Holy Spirit"

John 3:5 "Jesus ... the Spirit ... God"

John 3:34, 35 "God ... the Spirit ... the Father ... the Son"

John 4:24, 25 "God ... a Spirit ... Messiah... Christ"

John 14:16, 17, 26 "the Comforter ... the Father ... in My name"

John 15:26 "the Comforter ... the Father ... of Me"

John 20:21, 22 "Jesus ... Father ... the Holy Spirit"

Acts 2:32,33 "Jesus ... God ... the Father ... the Holy Spirit"

Acts 2:38,39 "Jesus Christ ... the Holy Spirit ... God"

Acts 4:30,31 "Jesus ... the Holy Spirit ... God"

Acts 5:31,32 "God ... a Prince and Savior ... the Holy Spirit"

Acts 7:55 "the Holy Spirit ... Jesus ... God"

Acts 8:14_16 "God ... the Holy Spirit ... Jesus"

Acts 10:38 "God ... Jesus ... the Holy Spirit"

Acts 10:46_48 "God ... the Holy Spirit ... the Lord"

Acts 11:16, 17 "the Lord... the Holy Spirit ... God ... the Lord Jesus Christ"

Acts 20:21_23 "God ... Jesus ... the Holy Spirit"

Romans 1:1,3,4 "God ... His Son, Jesus Christ ... the Spirit"

Romans 5:5,6 "God ... the Holy Spirit ... Christ"

Romans 8:2,3 "the Spirit ... Jesus ... God ... His own Son"

Romans 8:8,9 "God ... the Spirit ... the Spirit of Christ"

Romans 8:16, 17 "the Spirit ... God ... Christ"

Romans 14:17, 18 "the Holy Spirit ... Christ... God"

Romans 15:12, 13 "Root of Jesse (Jesus) ... God ... Holy Spirit"

Romans 15:16 "Jesus ... God ... the Holy Spirit"

Romans 15:30 "The Lord Jesus Christ ... the Spirit ... God"

1 Corinthians 6:10, 11 "God ... the Lord Jesus... the Spirit"

I Corinthians 12:4_6 "Spirit ... Lord... God"

1 Corinthians 7:39, 40 "the Lord Jesus ... the Spirit ... God"

1 Corinthians 8:2 "the Lord Jesus ... the Spirit ... God"

2 Corinthians 3:3, 4 "the Spirit ... Christ ... God"

2 Corinthians 13:14 "Jesus... God ... the Holy Spirit"

2 Corinthians 5:5, 6 "God ... the Spirit ... the Lord (Jesus)"

Galatians 4:6, 7 "God ... the Spirit ... Son ... Father ... God ... Christ"

Ephesians 2:18 "through Him (Jesus) ... Spirit ... the Father"

Ephesians 2:21, 22 "the Lord ... God ... the Spirit"

Ephesians 3:14, 16 "the Father ... Jesus Christ ... His Spirit"

Ephesians 4:4-6 "Spirit ... Lord (Jesus) ... God and Father"

Ephesians 5:18-20 "Spirit ... Lord (Jesus) ... God ... Father"

Colossians 1:6-8 "God ... Christ ... Spirit"

1Thessalonians 4:6-8 "Lord (Jesus) ... God ... Holy Spirit"

1 Thessalonians 5:18, 19 "God ... Father ... Christ ... Jesus ... Spirit"

2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14 "God ... Lord... God ... Spirit ... Lord Jesus Christ"

Titus 3:4-6 "God ... Holy Spirit ... Jesus Christ"

Hebrews 2:3, 4 "Lord (Jesus) ... God ... Holy Spirit"

Hebrews 3:4, 6, 7 "God ... Christ... Holy Spirit"

Hebrews 6:4-6 "Holy Spirit ... God ... Son"

Hebrews 9:14 "Christ ... Spirit ... God"

Hebrews 10:29-31 "Son of God ... Spirit ... Lord ... God"

1 Peter 1:2 "God the Father ... Spirit ... Jesus Christ"

1 Peter 3:18 "Christ ... God ... Spirit"

1 Peter 4:14 "Christ ... Spirit ... God"

2 Peter 1:21 "God ... Holy Spirit... Lord (Jesus)"

2 Peter 2:1 "God ... Holy Spirit ... Lord (Jesus)"

1 John 4:2 "Spirit ... Jesus ... God"

1 John 4:13, 14 "Spirit ... Father ... Son ... Savior"

1 John 5:7 "Father... Word ... Holy Spirit"

Jude 20, 21 "the Holy Spirit... God... Lord ... Jesus Christ"

Revelation 1:9, 10 "Jesus Christ ... God ... Jesus Christ ... Spirit"

Revelation 3:5-7 "Father ... Spirit ... He that hath the key of David (Jesus)"

Revelation 14:12, 13 "God ... Jesus ... Lord ... Spirit"

Revelation 21:9, 10 "Lamb ... Spirit ... God"

Revelation 22:16-18 "the offspring of David (Jesus) ... Spirit ... God"

[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_66.htm"]Is God One Person or More than One Person ?[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

IS THE TRINITY A PAGAN CONCEPT?

Some detractors claim that the early Christians copied the Trinity from surrounding pagan religions. Yet as the article The Trinity: An Explanation shows, the concept came from a careful reading and inspired interpretation of the Bible, which refers to three distinct Persons as "God" yet insists that there is but one God.

An Egyptian "Trinity"?

Before Christianity, no religion ever believed in a single Deity consisting of three persons. Detractors sometimes say that the Osirus-Isis-Horus family of ancient Egyptian mythology was a "model" for the Christian Trinity. Yet this is clearly a triad of distinct pagan deities, not a trinity in the Christian sense. The Egyptians never considered them to be three persons in one God, but as two separate gods and a goddess - among numerous other divinities such as Hathor, Ptah, Neith, Set, Nut, Geb, and Basht, to name a few. The highest deity in their pantheon was the sun god Ra, so they didn't even consider the Osirus-Isis-Horus triad to be supreme among the gods!

Triune Goddess?

Some point to "triple goddesses" worshipped by the pagan Celts as forerunners of the Christian Trinity. Yet these were either triads of mother goddesses or a single goddess with three "aspects" or "modes of being". The Holy Trinity isn't one Divine Person with three "aspects" or "modes", for the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are personally distinct from one another. Thus the "triple goddess" is merely a threefold deity, not a true trinity, thus she could not be the original of the Holy Trinity.

Trimurti = Trinity?

Finally, detractors claim that the Hindu "trimurti" - Brahma, Vishnu and Siva* - was another model for the Christian Trinity. (You can view a picture of the Hindu trimurti at another site ) Yet scholars tell us that this "trimurti" only appears in Hinduism during the fourth century after Christ. Christians had been professing belief in One God in Three Persons for four centuries by then! If the Holy Trinity concept predates the Hindu trimurti, the former could not have been copied from the latter. In fact, given Hinduism's tendancy to absorb concepts from other religions, and the fact that Christianity reached India in the first century, it is quite possible that the Hindu sages developed the trimurti along the lines of the Trinity-concept professed by Indian Christians!

Yet the former is not an exact copy of the latter. Hindus do not consider Brahma, Vishnu and Siva to be three persons in one God, but three distinct gods who each manifest part of Brahman, the impersonal Absolute. Some sages even add a fourth god, Ishvara, to this triad, and claim that he is the first - antecedent to the other three! This demolishes the threeness which seems to parallel the Trinity.

Moreover, Brahma, Vishnu and Siva each have a goddess consort - Sarasvati, Lakshmi and Sakti* respectively. That would make not three but six. Add Ishvara and his consort, Maheshvari, and you now have eight primary manifestations of Brahman! Yet these are only eight among millions of divinities in the Hindu tradition, all of which are considered various manifestations of the Absolute.

Thus any alleged Hindu parallel with the Trinity quickly dissolves into a modalistic polytheism and finally a monistic pantheism, in which all diversity in the universe merely manifests an underlying spiritual Unity (a concept not shared by orthodox Christianity).

Conclusion

So the Christian concept of the Trinity is quite unique to world religions, not copied from another faith but progressively revealed by God in Sacred Scripture. Yet some Christians believe that the various triads and threefold deities mentioned above may have originated in a primitive revelation of - or memory of - the Triunity of the One True God. This is also quite possible. Perhaps the memory traces back to our first parents, who walked with God at the dawn of humanity. Or maybe God revealed something of the Divinity to "righteous pagans", Gentiles of centuries past who sought the Most High God. These memories or revelations seeped into the legends of the human race, and soon became myths of divine triads and deities with three "aspects". For every religion has an element of truth in it; perhaps this is one such element.

Thus we need not be confused by pagan notions bearing a slight resemblance to biblical truth. They may show that God has not left the human race in complete ignorance of Divine Truth throughout the ages.

[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan1.html"]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan1.html[/url]



The Athanasian Creed 4th century
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith.
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. But this is the catholic faith: That we worship one God in trinity, and trinity in unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons; nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father: another of the Son: another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one: the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father is uncreated: the Son is uncreated: the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
9. The Father is immeasurable: the Son is immeasurable: the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.
10. The Father is eternal: the Son eternal: the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet there are not three eternals; but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated: nor three immeasurable: but one uncreated, and one immeasurable.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty: the Son almighty: and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet there are not three almighties: but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God: the Son is God: and the Holy Spirit is God.
16. And yet there are not three Gods; but one God.
17. So the Father is Lord: the Son Lord: and the Holy Spirit Lord.
18. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord:
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there are three Gods, or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none; neither created; nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone: not made; nor created; but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son: not made; neither created; nor begotten; but proceeding.
24. Thus there is one father, not three Fathers: one Son, not three Sons: one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is before or after another: none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.
28. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation, that we believe also rightly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. Now the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
31. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds: and Man, of the substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God: perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead: inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood.
34. And although He be God and Man; yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance; but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ.
38. Who suffered for our salvation: descended into Hades: rose again the third day from the dead.
39. He ascended into heaven. He sits on the right hand of God, the Father almighty:
40. From whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men must rise again with their bodies;
42. And shall give account for their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; but they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/rr1q637-645"]Radio Replies Volume One: The Holy Trinity[/url]

[b]639. Has not the Christian doctrine of the Trinity a mythological origin?[/b]

No. Christ taught us this doctrine both implicitly and explicitly in giving us His revelation. And He definitely ordered His Apostles to baptize in the one Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost


[b]640. But Indian philosophy taught this Trinitarian doctrine long before Christianity.
[/b]
It did not. In the Vedic philosophy there are traces of a trinity, but not of the Trinity. The idea of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is not to be found in it. That philosophy taught a pantheistic notion, all things being a kind of emanation from God to be reabsorbed into Him. It has no distinction such as ours between the Creator and the creature, and Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva bear no real resemblance whatever to the Christian doctrine of three divine and equal personalities sharing the one divine nature. The Indian notion no more resembles the Christian doctrine than does the hegelian Thesis, Antithesis, and Synthesis. You might just as well try to account for the notion of the Trinity from any notion of triplicity wherever it occurs.


[b]641. The idea of the Trinity was derived from ancient Egyptian mythology. The Oracle of Serapis used to reply, "First God, Oxen the Word, and with them the Holy Spirit. All these are of the same nature and make but one whole, of which the power is eternal."[/b]

Your only reason for attempting to derive the doctrine from Egyptian mythology is that you do not wish to admit that it is from God. The Egyptians derived their religious notions from their own every-day life. They had a multiplicity of gods, a god for every locality, each associated with some animal as a symbol Later the idea grew that the gods resided in statues combining human figures with animal heads. Legend made the gods marry, sometimes two goddesses to one male god, thus forming a triad. Or again, the number three was derived from the family unit of father, mother, and child. The mother was the counterpart of the father, and that father lived again in his child. Religious idealization attributed these notions to a supreme god, and the Egyptians spoke of Osiris, Isis, and Horus, father, mother and child. But Isis and Horus were both inferior to Osiris, and all three mere myths. Nor does even the mythical notion imply a tri-unity or trinity in anything like the Christian sense of the word, nor any true divinity of infinite perfection.
The Oracle of Serapis certainly never used the words you quote. The books of Trismegistus Hermes, or the Hermetic Books, which are the great source of Egyptian mythology are full of Neo-Platonic and post-Christian interpolations and additions, and are unreliable. The attributing of the expressions "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" to the Oracle of Serapis is but a subterfuge of enemies of Christianity who wish to suggest that the doctrine was never revealed by God. Anyone Can attribute anything to anybody. It is a different matter if you ask for proof of authenticity. [b]Men who will not believe in the doctrines of Christianity with evidence, will swallow oceans of oracles without evidence. Their eagerness not to be credulous when the historical Christ speaks is absurd in the light of their immense credulity when anybody merely mentions the magic words Oracle of Serapis. Their dislike of Christianity at once makes possible any anti-Christian assertion. But this is not rational.
[/b]

[b]642. Explain fully to us the Trinity, in the Christian sense of the word.[/b]

No man on earth can explain fully the Trinity. The finite mind cannot fully comprehend an infinite being. Even did God condescend to explain the doctrine fully to you, you would lack the capacity necessary in order to comprehend it. It is a revealed mystery to be accepted as true merely because God teaches it. However, we can explain the doctrine which Christians must believe. There are three divine Personalities in one divine Nature—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. These three Persons are equal in all things; equally God, equally eternal, powerful, etc. God is an infinitely perfect and purely spiritual Being, active in His knowledge and love. The knowledge God has of Himself is a living Personality called the Son. The idea of intellectual generation is not foreign to us, for we ourselves speak of our own thoughts as concepts and as the offspring of our intelligence. The mutual and reciprocal love between Father and Son is also a living personality—the Holy Spirit. There is no contradiction in this doctrine. We do not speak of one divine nature, yet three divine natures; nor of three divine persons, yet one divine person. We speak of one Divine Nature, yet of three Divine Persons, nature, and personality being quite different aspects of our consideration. It is as if, when dealing with the Persons, we viewed numerical distinction, as in the addition of 1 + 1 + 1 into 3, yet when dealing with the Nature in which all three Persona share, that fusion which results in unity by multiplication of the same three figures— 1X1X1 equals 1. Yet whilst the absence of contradiction is clear, the full significance of the triune nature of God is beyond the limited capacity of the human mind. We know the fact by revelation, and believe it implicitly because God has revealed it.

Edited January 24, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[SRMiller]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174900' date='Jan 24 2007, 08:30 PM']
A paraphrasing of John 3:16.

For YHWH so loved the world he made a body he dwelt in and named it Yeshua, meaning YHWH our righteousness, for whosoever believeth in him shall have life everlasting.
[/quote]

While I think this could sound beautiful, it isn't exactly what the verse says. I know you were paraphrasing, but a paraphrase still has to keep the sense of it. Instead, John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall have eternal life".

And I'll leave it at that, because I think Cmom has said it better than I can.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174690' date='Jan 24 2007, 11:11 AM']How can we claim that the Trinity is a new idea, when in fact it was practiced by so many other religions.[/quote]

I don't think anyone *does* claim that. Many Near Eastern mystery religions had myths about dying gods who were reborn to bring new life. Hinduism has a trinity in Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva. Just because non-Christian religions catch glimpses of and incorporate facets of the Truth does not a) minimize Christian truths, nor b) make them any less false. Scripture clearly states that even non-believers can catch glimpses of God through what He has made, and through human reason. Shadows, however, are obviously not the same as the Real Thing.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174914' date='Jan 24 2007, 03:54 PM']
Lets not debate this any farther.[/quote]
I'll go as long as there is something to respond to. If you can't defend your side then don't bother stopping in the thread anymore .

[quote]My choice is Yeshua alone, for Yeshua is YHWH my righteousness.[/quote]
That's fine. But if your going to come around spouting off about it to the others then you should be able to explain why.

[quote]All religions are evil in my book. Read all my posts.[/quote]
Even your own religion? I already said I agreed that all religions (outside of my own) are evil and from Satan. That doesn't mean that they haven't learned a thing or two from the true Church. If you believe things like murder and lying and stealing and fornicating are bad, then you agree with many other false and evil religions who also believe these things are bad. Would you say these evil religions are believing a lie? Of course not, because then you would be too.
[quote]
I do not want any authority other than YHWH in my life.

So I choose Yeshua, who is the light.[/quote]

Fine and dandy . But if you can't defend it from Scripture (as I assume that's your only source of inspiration) then no need wasting our time.

[quote]All religions should be dismantled, and all spirituality should include a private relationship with YHWH and then gathering people together to share what they learn of YHWH with each other. Which is exactly the way YHWH worked in the original Jewish Nation.[/quote]
Everybody needs a personal relationship with Christ. But we can't do that without the Church. We need the Church to fully understand Christ. Christ knew this and set up His Church in Scripture. He did NOT simply have private relationships with people while he lived.

[quote]Synogagues were for people coming and sharing what they learned of YHWH with each other. It wasn't an institution. Anybody speaking at a Synogogue was considered a Rabbi. Should be the same in the Christian world, but unfortunately it is not.[/quote]
I don't really care what the Jews did then, or now, honestly. I care what Christ's Church did which is exactly what His Church does now, and on much the same scale I might add (though pm'ers with disagree on that one

[quote]It wasn't a religion, but a time of fellowship with others who studied the Torah and the Prophets.[/quote]

And baptising, and sharing the Eucharistic meal, and anointing the sick with chrism, and forgiving those who confess their sins to the priests. Call it what you want, but that's what they did, and do now and will always do.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]A paraphrasing of John 3:16.

For YHWH so loved the world he made a body he dwelt in and named it Yeshua, meaning YHWH our righteousness, for whosoever believeth in him shall have life everlasting.

That is equally beautiful and poetic in my mind, and I hope it does you as well.[/quote]

That is not a paraphrase. That completely alters the substance of the text. No created being could ever be worthy to make atonement for other created beings, since every human being needs his or her own redemption. Jesus did not, and therefore He could not have been solely human.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174699' date='Jan 24 2007, 10:31 AM']
I'm a Modalist, which, in a way, makes me a unitarian.

YHWH is a spirit which indwelt a body to redeem all man kind unto himself. And when YHWH was here, he gave us a name, Yeshua, which means YHWH our righteousness. So we have the spirit, YHWH, and a body he named Yeshua, making YHWH our righteousness. YHWH is one spirit, and one lord, and the true faith knows he is one and not three. Believe me or not, but that is the truth. Oneness is the truth of the Apostles, and then the Pagan religions of Babylon corrupted the original teachings.

YHWH created us as the Father. YHWH redeemed the us as the Son. YHWH renews us as the Holy Ghost.
[/quote]


Yaweh evidently has conversations with himself. "this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased". It's not this:

"this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased with myself".

"I will send a comforter", he didn't say I will come as a comforter.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1175124' date='Jan 24 2007, 08:00 PM']
"I will send a comforter", he didn't say I will come as a comforter.
[/quote]
If He had said that, you think maybe He would have come as a dove down comforter?

-------------------------------------------

By the way, there are three ways of looking at apparent similarities of false religions to Christianity:

1. Christianity stole these concepts from non-Christian faiths (what you claim).
2. Satan anticipated the Christian faith and misled others into twisted forms in order to spread confusion.
3. Some religions hold some truths, though in mangled form.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1175136' date='Jan 24 2007, 07:22 PM']
If He had said that, you think maybe He would have come as a dove down comforter?

-------------------------------------------

By the way, there are three ways of looking at apparent similarities of false religions to Christianity:

1. Christianity stole these concepts from non-Christian faiths (what you claim).
2. Satan anticipated the Christian faith and misled others into twisted forms in order to spread confusion.
3. Some religions hold some truths, though in mangled form.
[/quote]

I don't find 2 and three to be in conflict. I think there is a fourth. The spirit of God welling up in man outside of Judaism caused them to come accross some truths, though in a very imperfect way. This rooted in the laws of God implanted in all men's hearts (rom 2:14-16) and all creation crying out to the glory of God. God can be seen in nature. Therefore things in nature tell us about God and who he is. Further the tri-unity of the family, father, mother and children, points toward the tri-unity of the trinity which we are made in the image and likeness of.

Blessings

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1175151' date='Jan 24 2007, 08:30 PM']
I don't find 2 and three to be in conflict. I think there is a fourth. The spirit of God welling up in man outside of Judaism caused them to come accross some truths, though in a very imperfect way. This rooted in the laws of God implanted in all men's hearts (rom 2:14-16) and all creation crying out to the glory of God. God can be seen in nature. Therefore things in nature tell us about God and who he is. Further the tri-unity of the family, father, mother and children, points toward the tri-unity of the trinity which we are made in the image and likeness of.

Blessings
[/quote]

Sorry, that part of the post was meant for FullTruth.

I agree with your fourth, but I'd consider it an elaboration on my third.

[Resurrexi]

The people who say the pagan triads might be memories of a revelation God gave to the pagans is incorrect, since all public revelation, according to the Catechism of St. Pius X is in Scripture and Tradition:

[quote name='The Catechism of St. Pius X']19 Q. Where are the truths which God has revealed contained?
A. The truths which God has revealed are contained in Holy Scripture and in Tradition.[/quote]

The Catholic Encyclopedia also says about both public and private revelations:

[quote name='Catholic Encyclopedia article "Private Revelations"']There are two kinds of revelations: (1) universal revelations, which are contained in the Bible or in the depositum of Apostolic tradition transmitted by the Church. These ended with the preaching of the Apostles and must be believed by all; (2) [b]particular or private revelations which are constantly occurring among Christians[/b][/quote]

It seems that revelations to the pagans cannot have been Public Revelation, nor could they have been private revelations since private revelations nowadays only occur to Catholics. I assume before Christ private revelations were given only to the Jews (or before Abraham, his ancestors) or others who adored only one God (I add the others who only adored one God since Job was a non-Jew before the time of Christ who adored the One True God. I'm not sure, though, if God or an angel ever appeared to Job since I've not actually read the Book of Job. Therefore, my claim that some non-Jews before the time of Christ who adored the One True God were granted private revelations may be completely incorrect).

[cmotherofpirl]

AS usual, you assume a lot. :

[Thy Geekdom Come]

STM, your Catholic Encyclopedia quote does not say that Private Revelations can only occur among Catholics or even only among Christians. It only says that they constantly do so with regard to Christians. That does not exclude others.

In fact, we know that Private Revelation can come to non-Christians. It came to pagans in the New Testament who specifically sought out the Apostles in order to hear the word of God. Since the Revelation they initially received was not from the Apostles (because they had not yet heard the Apostles), it was from Private Revelation.

Private Revelation can occur to non-Christians. God spoke to Job, who was a heathen and not even a Hebrew. He did this in order to bring Job closer to Himself.

Further, the option of forgetting or having truths get mangled a bit over time follows from what we know of Eden. Adam is the father of all mankind and certainly told his children about God. That means that all mankind had some inkling of God's nature, even though they may have twisted it around a bit.

God bless,

Micah

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1175482' date='Jan 24 2007, 10:44 PM']
STM, your Catholic Encyclopedia quote does not say that Private Revelations can only occur among Catholics or even only among Christians. It only says that they constantly do so with regard to Christians. That does not exclude others.

In fact, we know that Private Revelation can come to non-Christians. It came to pagans in the New Testament who specifically sought out the Apostles in order to hear the word of God. Since the Revelation they initially received was not from the Apostles (because they had not yet heard the Apostles), it was from Private Revelation.

Private Revelation can occur to non-Christians. God spoke to Job, who was a heathen and not even a Hebrew. He did this in order to bring Job closer to Himself.

Further, the option of forgetting or having truths get mangled a bit over time follows from what we know of Eden. Adam is the father of all mankind and certainly told his children about God. That means that all mankind had some inkling of God's nature, even though they may have twisted it around a bit.

God bless,

Micah
[/quote]

Could you show me some examples from acts?

Job adored the One True God, though. (Oh and I found a quote where God spoke to Job in the Scriptures, Job 1;8, : 8 And the Lord said to him: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a simple and upright man, and fearing God, and avoiding evil?")

Do you think Adam knew of the mystery of the Holy Trinity?

I find it highly unlikely that the mystery of the Holy Trinity was revealed prior to the time of Christ and the Apostles for Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott says: " The Trinity of God can only be known through Divine Revelation. (Sent. fidei proxima.)". Usually Divine Revelation refers to Public Revelation.

[Paddington]

FullTruth,

How do you interpret..."....the Word was WITH God...." ?

Peace,
Paddington

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1175508' date='Jan 25 2007, 12:57 AM']
Could you show me some examples from acts?

Job adored the One True God, though. (Oh and I found a quote where God spoke to Job in the Scriptures, Job 1;8, : 8 And the Lord said to him: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a simple and upright man, and fearing God, and avoiding evil?")

Do you think Adam knew of the mystery of the Holy Trinity?

I find it highly unlikely that the mystery of the Holy Trinity was revealed prior to the time of Christ and the Apostles for Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott says: " The Trinity of God can only be known through Divine Revelation. (Sent. fidei proxima.)". Usually Divine Revelation refers to Public Revelation.
[/quote]
Prophecy is a form of Revelation:
Writing on the recipients of prophecy, Benedict XIV (Heroic Virtue, III,144,150) says: "The recipients of prophecy may be angels, devils, men, women, children, heathens, or gentiles; nor is it necessary that a man should be gifted with any particular disposition in order to receive the light of prophecy provided his intellect and senses be adapted for making manifest the things which God reveals to him. Though moral goodness is most profitable to a prophet, yet it is not necessary in order to obtain the gift of prophecy." He also tells us that the angels by their own natural penetration cannot know future events whch are undermined and contingent or uncertain, neither can they know the secrets of the heart of another, whether man or angel. When therefore God reveals to an angel as the medium through which the future is made known to man, the angel also becomes a prophet. As to the Devil, the same author tells us that he cannot of his own natural knowledge foretell future events which are the proper objects of prophecy, yet God may make use of him for this purpose. Thus we read in the Gospel of St. Luke that when the Devil saw Jesus he fell down before Him and, crying out with a loud voice, said: "What have I to do with thee, Jesus, Son of the most high God?" (Luke 8:28). There are instances of women and children prophesying in Holy Scripture. Mary, the sister of Moses, is called a prophetess; Anna, the mother of Samuel, prophesied; Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, by a Divine revelation recognized and confessed Mary as the Mother of God. Samuel and Daniel as boys prophesied; Balaam, a Gentile, foretold the advent of the Messias and the devastation of Assyria and Palestine. St. Thomas, in order to prove that the heathens were capable of prophecy, refers to the instance of the Sybils, who make clear mention of the mysteries of the Trinity, of the Incarnation of the Word, of the Life, Passion, and Resurrection of Christ. It is true that the Sybilline poems now extant became in course of time interpolated; but, as Benedict XIV remarks, this does not hinder much of them, especially what the early Fathers referred to, from being genuine and in no wise apocryphal.
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12473a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12473a.htm[/url]

[thessalonian]

[quote]The people who say the pagan triads might be memories of a revelation God gave to the pagans is incorrect, since all public revelation, according to the Catechism of St. Pius X is in Scripture and Tradition:[/quote]

Once again you have difficulty parsing church statements. Pure and correct revelation comes in the manner you describe. But if God does not reveal himself to anyone outside the Church and these means we need to rip Romans 1, 2, and Acts 17 out of our Bibles. The three wise men never made it to Bethlehem. A pagan samaritan who believed the God of the Jews was one of many gods who helped a wounded man on the side of the rode could not possibly have been held up as an example for men to follow and been called "the good samaritan". Men do grope and find God because he reveals himself in nature as well. These facts are recognized in the documents of vatican II also. They do not get infallible revelation, but God speaks to those outside the physical bounds of the Church in private revelatoin.