Why Protestants Read The Fathers...

[N/A Gone]

[quote]This brings up the question. To a protestant reading the fathers what are they? Do they have authority? Im no saying utter authority, but their words need consideration. Like augustine. very sacramental as you explained today (*i have that article on my computer btw) just curious. Cause there are clear parts of patristic writing where RC authority, sacramental system and things such as purgatory are made clear. Yet, I know you know this. [/quote]

In which he replied by giving me these

[url="http://uperekperisou.blogspot.com/2007/01/claiming-paternity-or-why-church.html"]http://uperekperisou.blogspot.com/2007/01/...why-church.html[/url]

and

[url="http://pursiful.com/?p=231"]http://pursiful.com/?p=231[/url]


Thoughts phamily?

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b]2 Tim. 2:2[/b]
"And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/62002.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/62002.htm[/url] [/quote] Saint Paul the Apostle writes that those whom have heard the gospel message are then able to teach others also. This is oral tradition that the Catholic Church so proudly holds up which is here spoken of in the Sacred Scriptures.

This oral tradition can be sometimes written down such as we find in the Church fathers. But when we start to compare them to the Bible someone should right away ask the question, what books of the Bible do we accept to be true? For within the contents of the writing of the Bible there is no “inspired contexts page.” So how are we supposed to discern what is inspired and what is not?

The answer is simple, we turn to those things outside of the scriptures and to the holy Church that we are assured to be the pillar and ground of the truth. Therefore all things that she assures us to be infallible or divinely inspired is indeed, for our Blessed Lord founded the Church Himself. [quote][b]1 Tim. 3:15[/b]
"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/61003.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/61003.htm[/url] [/quote][quote][b]Matt. 16:18[/b]
“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47016.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47016.htm[/url] [/quote]Moreover we start to look at the actual writings of the scriptures. Many Protestants refute any of the church fathers because they claim all revelation or any important writings of the scriptures ended in the [b]Apocalypse of Saint John the Apostle[/b] ([i]The Book of Revelation[/i]).[quote][b]Rev. 22:18-19[/b]
"For I testify to every one that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73022.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73022.htm[/url][/quote]This would be a great little argument for denouncing the early church fathers except for the fact that the church fathers decided to place this canon at the end of the Bible (thus it isn’t important) but also because it sounds very familiar to another few verses.[quote][b]Deut 4:2[/b]
"You shall not add to the word that I speak to you, neither shall you take away from it: keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/05004.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/05004.htm[/url] [/quote][quote][b]Deut 12:32[/b]
"What I command thee, that only do thou to the Lord: neither add any thing, nor diminish."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/05012.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/05012.htm[/url][/quote]So unless we are denouncing the whole of the New Testament and most of the Old Testament one cannot claim this extends to the entire sacred scripture but only to this writing of Saint John the Apostle. Thus we start looking at what Saint Paul the Apostle said earlier. Further to make a stronger point we should recall that Saint Mark, Saint Luke, and Saint Paul were not of the original twelve apostles.

In fact one could question (in theory) if Saint Luke even saw our Blessed Lord during His earthly life. So clearly we have to start looking to how we know what is in the Bible is true so we turn to the early church fathers and sacred tradition. [quote]"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. [u]Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, [b]there is the Catholic Church[/b][/u]. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm[/url][/quote]So the early church called the Church “Catholic” as a proper noun, thus being in the uppercase. You can even go to many non-Catholic websites where they have this listed and it will still be in the uppercase. So one must question why the early church fathers spoke of the Church being Catholic and why elsewhere the Church fathers speak of apostolic succession.

So for a non-Catholic to argue the scriptures they have to look how it was first applied, the actual gospel of our Blessed Lord, which turns out to be the Church. So the only argument that can validly be proposed is that the visible church failed but the “invisible church” survived. This is simply false for our Blessed Lord commanded the Church to be visible to the people that they may see the good works that we do.[quote][b]Matt 5:14-16[/b]
"You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house. So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Rev. 21:9,14 [/b]
"And there came one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying: Come, and I will shew thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them, the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73021.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73021.htm[/url] [/quote]

[Nathan]

Well said!