Charismatic Movement

[puellapaschalis]

Insofar as I understand it, I have little or no issue with the [i]thinking[/i] behind the Charismatic Renewal (if that's what we're actually talking about here), although I'd much rather - like my opinion matters - that the bestowing of the gifts, that is, the "Baptism of the Spirit", should happen at Confirmation. Howsoever that may be, there's nothing wrong with [i]asking[/i] for those gifts to be bestowed (should they only be asked for after the recipient himself has actually received Confirmation?).

The [i]style[/i] of worship grates with me. I find it difficult to see how that kind of music (that sounded horrible and that wasn't my intention) can adequately accompany something as jaw-droppingly awe-inspiring as this proprietary Sacrifice. But this isn't a liturgy thread, right? So let's not go there

I have been hurt by charismatic groups and movements in the Church, and whilst I don't want to tar everything with the same brush, for me it's a case of once bitten. What perhaps is more concerning is that some bishops seem to assume that "young people" (a term whose definition seems to become looser by the minute) want "young people stuff" accompanied by that style of music and worship. This has serious pastoral consequences and has affected more than just myself, and is one of the reasons why I won't be going to WJD in Syndey next year.

Love and prayers,

PP

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1185184' date='Feb 5 2007, 01:41 AM']
Insofar as I understand it, I have little or no issue with the [i]thinking[/i] behind the Charismatic Renewal (if that's what we're actually talking about here), although I'd much rather - like my opinion matters - that the bestowing of the gifts, that is, the "Baptism of the Spirit", should happen at Confirmation. Howsoever that may be, there's nothing wrong with [i]asking[/i] for those gifts to be bestowed (should they only be asked for after the recipient himself has actually received Confirmation?).

The [i]style[/i] of worship grates with me. I find it difficult to see how that kind of music (that sounded horrible and that wasn't my intention) can adequately accompany something as jaw-droppingly awe-inspiring as this proprietary Sacrifice. But this isn't a liturgy thread, right? So let's not go there

I have been hurt by charismatic groups and movements in the Church, and whilst I don't want to tar everything with the same brush, for me it's a case of once bitten. What perhaps is more concerning is that some bishops seem to assume that "young people" (a term whose definition seems to become looser by the minute) want "young people stuff" accompanied by that style of music and worship. This has serious pastoral consequences and has affected more than just myself, and is one of the reasons why I won't be going to WJD in Syndey next year.

Love and prayers,

PP
[/quote]
I said this the last time I posted I think but I'll say it again in response here. I definitely see some of the charismatic stuff as a jumping-off point for many youth. Is this the way I'd like to see them come to the faith? No. I'd like to see them just fall in love with doctrine because it's Truth. But frankly, it doesn't happen that way. Not with everyone. And God gave us senses for a reason. I don't think it's bad to tap into the senses in order to elicit an initial response. Sometimes ONE Youth 2000 (or WYD) can change a person and lead them to follow Christ more closely. It only takes a spark.

Some people actually NEED (or think they need) to be brought in this way.

In my mind, a person will eventually outgrow the all-charismatic way of worship. As their faith begins to mature and develop and they really dive into the heart of Catholicism, I think a person tends to cultivate a love for the Divine and not the effect of music on our bodies. It becomes 'easier' to appreciate things like silent adoration and contemplative prayer.

I don't think it's fair to expect everyone to just get it right away without any help. And I definitely don't think it's right to judge people for not having as deep a faith as you do. (And that sounds bad in two ways: like I'm saying you conciously judge other people's souls and that charismatics aren't deeply faith-filled. But that's not how I mean it at all...

I think of young people that 'need' that stuff as young children. They are passionate about something on their level. But as they grow and mature, so will their love - so will their passion. It will become much more than they ever expected. They will outgrow that sense of passion and move into a newer one - one that is more rich and fulfilling than before.)

BUT ANYWAY....



I guess I've totally derailed the thread. Back on topic:

[size=4][b]Does the charismatic renewal bring about vocations?[/b][/size]

[Groo the Wanderer]

I hope it does, but the whole charismatic thing scares me.

We have one charismatic mass at our parish during the week (and 7 normal...err..regular? masses every weekend) but it is in Spanish, so that kinda also makes me afraid to go.

It scares me because my wife is AoG and they are big-time into the charismatic thing, mainly the tongues, slain in the spirit, and hand waving stuff. I see SO many of them doing it for an attention thing (look at me, I'm louder and therefore holier than the other guy), and so many that are insincere about it, that I am afraid the same thing would happen inside the Catholic Church.

Lord knows we need to stomp out the liturgical abuses that exist currently - I don;t wanna see more brought in...

My thoughts are: if it helps someone come closer to God, then it is fine, as long as it is done sincerely and with God as the focus, not the person. Not my thing right now, but who knows where God will lead me. Maybe it might even serve as an impetus to bring my wife home to the true faith...

[franciscanheart]

What is AoG?

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1185272' date='Feb 5 2007, 09:29 AM']
Lord knows we need to stomp out the liturgical abuses that exist currently - I don;t wanna see more brought in...
[/quote]
These things are not liturgical abuses. In fact, in true form, they are graces granted by the Holy Spirit. They are not done willfully by the person though the person ought not will against them.

Speaking in tongues is an intimate form of prayer that is not just a person babbling. It is truly a prayer from the heart of the soul. That's not to say that others won't yell and scream and carry on with wailing and the works. And that's not to say that should you see someone like that that they are faking.

Being slain in the Spirit is also not something that is an abuse. Again, it is a gift from the Holy Spirit.

The hand waving stuff is not (as far as I know haha) a gift of the spirit but a choice of bodily motion by the participant. I don't like that.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1185274' date='Feb 5 2007, 09:30 AM']
What is AoG?
These things are not liturgical abuses. In fact, in true form, they are graces granted by the Holy Spirit. They are not done willfully by the person though the person ought not will against them.

Speaking in tongues is an intimate form of prayer that is not just a person babbling. It is truly a prayer from the heart of the soul. That's not to say that others won't yell and scream and carry on with wailing and the works. And that's not to say that should you see someone like that that they are faking.

Being slain in the Spirit is also not something that is an abuse. Again, it is a gift from the Holy Spirit.

The hand waving stuff is not (as far as I know haha) a gift of the spirit but a choice of bodily motion by the participant. I don't like that.
[/quote]


Hi Hughey!

AoG - Assemblies of God

The apotential abuses in the charismatic movement to which I was referrring are not those valid forms you mention. Rather I was referring to what I see in my wife's church:
1. seeing who can be the holiest by being the loudest
2. faking speaking in tongues
3. regarding tongues as the defining proof that one if holy
4. attempting to train kids to begin to speak in tongues (as if one can be trained to gain a gift from God)

THAT is the stuff I do NOT want to see in the Holy Mother Church. Thanks for making me clarify that :

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1185312' date='Feb 5 2007, 10:02 AM']
Hi Hughey!

AoG - Assemblies of God

The apotential abuses in the charismatic movement to which I was referrring are not those valid forms you mention. Rather I was referring to what I see in my wife's church:
1. seeing who can be the holiest by being the loudest
2. faking speaking in tongues
3. regarding tongues as the defining proof that one if holy
4. attempting to train kids to begin to speak in tongues (as if one can be trained to gain a gift from God)

THAT is the stuff I do NOT want to see in the Holy Mother Church. Thanks for making me clarify that :
[/quote]
Ah. Gotcha. That's good... I don't want to see that either!

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Zkelly' post='1182432' date='Feb 1 2007, 06:26 PM']
Ok, I was having a conversation with a priest the other day about the Charismatic movement in the Church. We were discussing whether or not it produced vocations or just provided kids an excuse to goof off in Church. What are some of your opinions?
[/quote]

How can a supernatural experience of God's love not produce the fruit of greater faith and vocations?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1185184' date='Feb 5 2007, 02:41 AM']
Insofar as I understand it, I have little or no issue with the [i]thinking[/i] behind the Charismatic Renewal (if that's what we're actually talking about here), although I'd much rather - like my opinion matters - that the bestowing of the gifts, that is, the "Baptism of the Spirit", should happen at Confirmation. Howsoever that may be, there's nothing wrong with [i]asking[/i] for those gifts to be bestowed (should they only be asked for after the recipient himself has actually received Confirmation?).[/quote]

The Gifts of the Spirit are received at Confirmation, but what good is a sacrament if you aren't converted? The Charismatic Movement isn't about receiving those gifts, but bringing out the manifestation of them.

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1185274' date='Feb 5 2007, 10:30 AM']
The hand waving stuff is not (as far as I know haha) a gift of the spirit but a choice of bodily motion by the participant. I don't like that.
[/quote]

I consider it more of a response to God's love, or perhaps this is how I choose to respond when I'm worshipping in the appropriate context. That usually means going to my friends' Baptist church in the evening, but the charismatic Catholic retreat I attended last weekend was so much better than that!

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1185312' date='Feb 5 2007, 11:02 AM']
The apotential abuses in the charismatic movement to which I was referrring are not those valid forms you mention. Rather I was referring to what I see in my wife's church:
1. seeing who can be the holiest by being the loudest
2. faking speaking in tongues
3. regarding tongues as the defining proof that one if holy
4. attempting to train kids to begin to speak in tongues (as if one can be trained to gain a gift from God)

THAT is the stuff I do NOT want to see in the Holy Mother Church. Thanks for making me clarify that :
[/quote]

Well, abuses can happen with anything good. The Bible is abused, Christ was abused, the Church is abused.... any gift can and will be abused, but God loves us too much to withhold what is good out of fear for what might happen when sinners get involved.

Catholicism has no teaching about tongues being defining proof of someone being holy. Remember last Sunday's NT reading from Corinthians: "if I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am just a clanging gong." Clearly, even the early Christians abused these charismatic gifts, but Paul didn't tell them to stop speaking in tongues, but rather to focus on the greatest gift: love!

Not everyone receives tongues. I asked for it this past weekend, but didn't receive it. I asked for a definite answer to my priesthood vs. marriage question, but didn't receive it. Instead, God told me to be patient and that's exactly what I needed to hear. They had priests hearing Confessions, an hour of silence during which Adoration was available, and we prayed the Rosary together. Sunday morning we had 45 minutes of spontaneous praise and worship and after Mass, probably 8 or 9 kids (including myself, although I'm 26) out of the 30 or 40 there got up to receive prayer for our discernment process.

I give that testimony to say that the "traditional" stuff like the Mass, Adoration, Liturgy of the Hours, and Confession, must not be separated from the "charismatic" stuff, like spontaneous worship, gifts of the Spirit, hand-waving and hand-clapping. The two provide balance. The problem with Assemblies of God and Pentecostals is they lack the balance and structure that Christ's sacraments provide for us. So don't be afraid of this stuff... it's from the Holy Spirit!

Edited February 5, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1185260' date='Feb 5 2007, 10:11 AM']
In my mind, a person will eventually outgrow the all-charismatic way of worship. As their faith begins to mature and develop and they really dive into the heart of Catholicism, I think a person tends to cultivate a love for the Divine and not the effect of music on our bodies. It becomes 'easier' to appreciate things like silent adoration and contemplative prayer.[/quote]

Catholicism isn't about either/or, but we can receive and appreciate both sides of the faith Since the Charismatic Movement is all about the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is God, I cannot imagine anyone can outgrow it. How could we ever outgrow God? Even Thomas Aquinas was blown away by what God revealed to him that he stopped writing Summa Theologica because it was "straw" compared to whatever this revelation was that is unknown to us.

But I do agree with you that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, in that they introduce Catholics to experiencing God's love, will then lead to greater devotion to Mary, the Eucharist, comtemplative prayer, etc. And that in turn will lead to more faith, more love, and more vocations.

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1185260' date='Feb 5 2007, 10:11 AM']
[size=4][b]Does the charismatic renewal bring about vocations?[/b][/size]
[/quote]

I don't know if you can get a definite, scientific answer to that question. I would say it does, without a doubt. But I can't give you any numbers of such-and-such number of seminarians who came from the Charismatic Movement. What the Church needs is conversion among everyone: laypeople, priests, and religious. In other words, the New Evangelization. This will lead to more vocations and since the Charismatic Movement is contributing to the New Evangelization, I'm sure it is bringing more vocations.

But let's not worry about the numbers of priests... God's got it all in his hands. Keep our eyes on the prize and the rest of will take care of itself!

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1185520' date='Feb 5 2007, 02:48 PM']
I consider it more of a response to God's love, or perhaps this is how I choose to respond when I'm worshipping in the appropriate context. That usually means going to my friends' Baptist church in the evening, but the charismatic Catholic retreat I attended last weekend was so much better than that!
[/quote]
When done in the proper setting (not at Mass) then I don't have a problem with it. It's when you want to wave your arms around like a banshee at Mass to the rock music that I start to have a problem. It's distracting and unnecessary.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1185520' date='Feb 5 2007, 02:48 PM']
I give that testimony to say that the "traditional" stuff like the Mass, Adoration, Liturgy of the Hours, and Confession, must not be separated from the "charismatic" stuff, like spontaneous worship, gifts of the Spirit, hand-waving and hand-clapping. The two provide balance. The problem with Assemblies of God and Pentecostals is they lack the balance and structure that Christ's sacraments provide for us. So don't be afraid of this stuff... it's from the Holy Spirit!
[/quote]
I think the Mass and Adoration could easily do without all the hand-clapping and arm-waving. In fact, I know MANY who do without it and are very strong, vibrant young Catholics. It's not [i]necessary[/i], it's [i]preferred[/i]. Again.. some people actually reach a place in their faith where sitting and listening to the word of God ALONE is enough.

The idea may seem weird but I don't think it's incorrect.

[traichuoi]

Charismatic movement...eh...not my cuppa either...

[EJames]

[quote name='Zkelly' post='1182575' date='Feb 1 2007, 05:51 PM']
Actually, I was discerning the CFR's before entering the diocesian seminary. I stayed in their novitiate friary for about a week and found them to be very traditional and not very charismatic. True, some of them are charismatics and they do like to have a lot of youth things that, IMHO, appear to be charismatic but I found none of this at any of their Masses. So, I don't think they're an accurate measuring stick on witch to measure the charismatic movement.

(please note that I'm not making a judgement about the Charismatic movement, but just saying that the CFR's can't represent it in the Church as a whole.)
[/quote]

[u]from the Franciscan-Archives.org[[/u]color=#000000]

"Communities of Friars Minor which separated(reformed) from the (principle) Order

[b]Frati Minori Rinnovati,[/b] a reform of the OFMCap, Palermo, Italy,1975 [Mitigated Novus Ordo]

[b]The Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate[/b], a reform of the OFMConv., from Avellino, Italy [Mitigated Novus Ordo -- Kolbian]

[b]The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal[/b], a reform of the OFMCap, New York City, USA [Mitigated Novus Ordo, Charismatic]

[b]The Friars of the Primitive Observance,[/b] a reform of the Friars of the Renewal (Immaculate Conception Friary, 107 Rivet St., New Bedford, MA 02744, USA) [Mitigated Novus Ordo Charismatic]
[b]
The Capuchin Friars of Morgon[/b], France: (Couvent St. François, Morgon, 69910 Villié-Morgon, France) [Mitigated Traditional non-Indult]

[b]The Conventual Friars of Tonalà[/b], Mexico: (Frailes Conventuales, Balsas #62, Villas de Buenos Aires, Colonia Camichines II, Tonalà, Jalisco, Mexico) [Traditional non-Indult]"

Edited February 6, 2007 by EJames

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1185539' date='Feb 5 2007, 04:16 PM']
When done in the proper setting (not at Mass) then I don't have a problem with it. It's when you want to wave your arms around like a banshee at Mass to the rock music that I start to have a problem. It's distracting and unnecessary.
I think the Mass and Adoration could easily do without all the hand-clapping and arm-waving. In fact, I know MANY who do without it and are very strong, vibrant young Catholics. It's not [i]necessary[/i], it's [i]preferred[/i]. Again.. some people actually reach a place in their faith where sitting and listening to the word of God ALONE is enough.

The idea may seem weird but I don't think it's incorrect.
[/quote]

I agree about keeping Mass a more solemn experience, but it doesn't have to be a funeral either. We're remembering the Resurrection, after all! Most Masses are more like funerals than celebrations. Of course, for those of us who understand what's happening, it's different, but we shouldn't leave everyone else in back of the church. In my book, the New Evangelization will be a success when Mass gains a reputation for its joyfulness.

In the retreat I was at, there was no hand-waving or music during Adoration. It was completely quiet. We had an hour of silence to pray, reflect, walk around outside, journal, adore the Blessed Sacrament, and listen to God. Mass was upbeat, joyful, and reverent. If you had walked in there, you would have no idea it was the middle of a "charismaniac" retreat ;-)

That's why I'm convinced that the Traditionalist folks and Charismatic folks can and should work together, gain from each other's strengths, and there is no limit to what God can do. If you don't desire the outward manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that's fine, but be sure to build up those who do and encourage them because God can use you to help them appreciate and love the Church's traditional elements. After all, it's the sacramental life, Adoration, Rosary, etc. that cement the joy and spiritual high experienced at these charismatic retreats.

Edited February 6, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[EJames]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1186017' date='Feb 5 2007, 08:46 PM']
I agree about keeping Mass a more solemn experience, but it doesn't have to be a funeral either. We're remembering the Resurrection, after all! Most Masses are more like funerals than celebrations. Of course, for those of us who understand what's happening, it's different, but we shouldn't leave everyone else in back of the church. In my book, the New Evangelization will be a success when Mass gains a reputation for its joyfulness.

In the retreat I was at, there was no hand-waving or music during Adoration. It was completely quiet. We had an hour of silence to pray, reflect, walk around outside, journal, adore the Blessed Sacrament, and listen to God. Mass was upbeat, joyful, and reverent. If you had walked in there, you would have no idea it was the middle of a "charismaniac" retreat ;-)

That's why I'm convinced that the Traditionalist folks and Charismatic folks can and should work together, gain from each other's strengths, and there is no limit to what God can do. If you don't desire the outward manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that's fine, but be sure to build up those who do and encourage them because God can use you to help them appreciate and love the Church's traditional elements. After all, it's the sacramental life, Adoration, Rosary, etc. that cement the joy and spiritual high experienced at these charismatic retreats.
[/quote]


the most truly 'charismatic' Mass one can assist at is a well sung Byzantine Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom... :
[url="http://saintelias.com/mp3/pascha2005/pascha2005_04.mp3"]http://saintelias.com/mp3/pascha2005/pascha2005_04.mp3[/url]
[url="http://saintelias.com/ca/feastday/pascha.php"]http://saintelias.com/ca/feastday/pascha.php[/url] Ukrainian Catholic
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emcry2SU4vI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emcry2SU4vI[/url]

Edited February 6, 2007 by EJames

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='EJames' post='1186001' date='Feb 5 2007, 10:24 PM']
[u]from the Franciscan-Archives.org[[/u]color=#000000]

"Communities of Friars Minor which separated(reformed) from the (principle) Order

[b]Frati Minori Rinnovati,[/b] a reform of the OFMCap, Palermo, Italy,1975 [Mitigated Novus Ordo]

[b]The Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate[/b], a reform of the OFMConv., from Avellino, Italy [Mitigated Novus Ordo -- Kolbian]

[b]The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal[/b], a reform of the OFMCap, New York City, USA [Mitigated Novus Ordo, Charismatic]

[b]The Friars of the Primitive Observance,[/b] a reform of the Friars of the Renewal (Immaculate Conception Friary, 107 Rivet St., New Bedford, MA 02744, USA) [Mitigated Novus Ordo Charismatic]
[b]
The Capuchin Friars of Morgon[/b], France: (Couvent St. François, Morgon, 69910 Villié-Morgon, France) [Mitigated Traditional non-Indult]

[b]The Conventual Friars of Tonalà[/b], Mexico: (Frailes Conventuales, Balsas #62, Villas de Buenos Aires, Colonia Camichines II, Tonalà, Jalisco, Mexico) [Traditional non-Indult]"
[/quote]
What point were you making with this information?

[EJames]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1186034' date='Feb 5 2007, 09:04 PM']
What point were you making with this information?
[/quote]
oh, just that the CFRrs are listed as Charismatic, on the Franciscan Archives, and on the International Conference of Charismatic renewal..thats all..

[aalpha1989]

read chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians....
he confuses me about speaking in tongues...he says its a good thing, but its useless if no one can interpret it? No, he says its useless for YOU for him to speak in tongues if you dont understand him....but also that five words of the mind are better than 10 000 words in tongues? that makes them sound kinda useless to me...but then paul talks aobut how happy he is that he speaks in tongues more than "any of you".....wow i'm confused....

[alicemary]

When I have seen people 'speaking in tongues' it was so phoney it was laughable. I certainly do not need to speak in gibberish to receive the Lord. Psychiatric patients often do that kind of rambling, I do not need it in my church service. Sorry guys, I am completely turned off by the whole charismatic movement.
I also doubt if many communities would allow you to practice this form of religion. I just don't think it would work.

[cmaD2006]

First thing ... there's a part of me that wishes that this discussion moves out of vocation station; I think the original question has been answered (i.e. it can foster vocations) within the first few posts, and it really has (mostly) evolved into elaborating/discussing the movement instead of the question.

I've decided to not enter the debate about the charismatic movement at all but to say my two general cents below.

Realize that every movement/spirituality in the Church has the potential for abuse. Because of our humanity and original sin.

And, not every movement/spirituality is for everyone in the Church. But each movement/spirituality is there to help those whom "the shoe fits" to grow in sanctity. I have examples of my own where a particular movement or spirituality "grates" against me, *but* in respect to those that may be very partial to those movements/spiritualities I won't mention them by name. This board covers the gambit, and I respect that. That is part of the beauty of vocation station where so many people can be together that are called in different ways.

Each movement/spirituality in the Church has the potential to foster vocations ... as I would say in layman's terms "Jesus could choose to dangle a different 'carrot' in front of someone to lure that person to Him". Isn't it wonderful that He tailors the way He draws someone to Him to fit that person perfectly? And that is also part of the beauty of our Church.

-- Carmen

[franciscanheart]

and with that, the thread is closed. if you want to debate this further, please bring it to the debate table. thanks.