Bruce S Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 It may just be MATH, pure simple math that changes back the Celibate Priesthood distinctive... Without a REAL increase in the number of seminarians [ now about 4-5,000 down from 40K in the sixties ] and the average age in the USA of practicing diocesan priests now 63, the Catholic Church will face empty parishes, and will have to resort to importing foreign priests. And in Europe this is true for the most part and other nations too. So, given this MATH issue... and the needs..... When do you think the Pope or another succesor will have to change this doctrinal distinctive? This really is a question that is being asked within the Catholic Church all over the place too, so I'm interested in what the "Uber Catholics" [ my term for the ultra's here ... grin ]
Jake Huether Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 Although it "could" in fact happen, because celibacy is a discipline and not doctrine or dogma... Your logic doesn't make sense: If in the sixties there were so many seminarians, despite the fact that there was celibacy as a requirement, then what makes you think that it's celibacy NOW that is all of a sudden causing the shortage??? The shortage isn't caused by men being affraid of celibacy. The shortage is because men are denying God's call. And if men are denying God's call, then there is nothing the Church can do to "please" them anyway.
DojoGrant Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 God does provide. The parish of St. Joseph Catholic Church in Starkville has never had someone leave it who became a priest. The closest in the area is our current pastor, raised in West Point, MS, about 20 miles away. We just had one leave who is in the seminary for the Memphis, TN diocese. I plan on entering seminary in 2005 for the Jackson, MS diocese. There are two others seriously discerning their call, and one considering a religious vocation. There are two in middle school who have expressed serious interest, and even one in elementary (hey, that's when our current pastor started to feel God's call). Is there a shortage? Yes. And yet God is still calling men who are ready to serve. They need only say yes. Thank JESUS CHRIST we have some that are here.
jasJis Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 Although it "could" in fact happen, because celibacy is a discipline and not doctrine or dogma... Your logic doesn't make sense: If in the sixties there were so many seminarians, despite the fact that there was celibacy as a requirement, then what makes you think that it's celibacy NOW that is all of a sudden causing the shortage??? The shortage isn't caused by men being affraid of celibacy. The shortage is because men are denying God's call. And if men are denying God's call, then there is nothing the Church can do to "please" them anyway. The phone's ringing. It's not that it's not being answered because you don't know Who's on the other end. It's not being answerd because of what He's asking. Celibacy, as plainly and distinctly explained by Jesus (with red letters in your bible translation, Bruce! *grin*) is a gift from God to allow you to focus all your energy in service. ;)
Bruce S Posted January 23, 2004 Author Posted January 23, 2004 Right now, 15% of all parishes are without a priest and they predict that 25% will in two decades given the retirement of active ones.
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 (edited) There are parts of the world where men are answering God's call in large numbers. We live in a culture that devalues celibacy, selflessness, sacrifice, etc. so it makes sense that our young men would be less likely to do the priesthood. I would rather have more priests from other countries coming here to evangelize our culture than see the celibacy discipline loosened up. It might increase the quantity, but I doubt it would increase the quality, and that's what we need most of all is men totally dedicated to their flock in a spirit of self sacrificing love and service like Jesus Christ, the High Priest. And practically speaking, I've heard permanent deacons stastically have a high divorce rate and that becoming deacons often puts a lot of stress of the Marriage because it can be pretty demanding. I imagine it would be even worse to try and live as a married priest. You would be married to the Church and your wife, juggling two women, plus kids. And I think it would send out a bad signal to the world, it would cause scandal to many Catholics and the liberals and secular people would think they were winning and they'd think "if that can change, let's see what else can change", women priests next! And it wouldn't help the crisis in Priestly identity, it would support the liberal agenda that presents the priesthood as a 9-5 job rather than a sacred vocation. And priests would become more like protestant ministers, they'd be normal guys with a house and family who just go do church stuff instead of men radically set apart for Christ, eschatological signs, etc. Edited January 23, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum
DojoGrant Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 Our diocese has three seminarians from Mexico. To give you a hint of their dedication, they spent an extra two years becoming fluent in the language, thus delaying their studies, so that they could be priests here.
Jake Huether Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 What's the point of this thread??? As it appears, Bruce likes to plant discord and dissruption. I will not respond to any more of his inflamatory statements. He will play it off as if he is sencere. But all he wants to do is push buttons. God bless you Burce, may you find peace with yourself.
M.SIGGA Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 If you are called to become married and sacramental ministry, become a deacon and leave the priesthood alone. As all these liberal foggies get out of the way the seminaries are filling back up. There's really no need to worry when there is faith b/c God provides. This ain't a debate 'cause the requirements aren't gonna change.
Paladin D Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 The problem isn't celibacy, it's three factors... 1. Many parents do not support their children on the idea of entering the religious life. 2. Families in North America and Western Europe on average, aren't having as large families as they used to. 3. In this time of sexual glorification, worldly desires in an ultra-secular world, it distracts and leads people away from their destiny. (Though these things have been around, it's more common than before) ...these are the problems that have to be dealt with. Besides, the Catholic Church isn't the only organization that is having this problem. In Protestant sects which include pastors (or priests) that can be either male or female, and have an option to marry, are facing a decline in vocations. It problem is not celibacy.
Norseman82 Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 First of all, there already are some Catholic priests who are married: Eastern Rite Catholic priests and some priests who were married clergy from protestant denominations that were allowed to be ordained Catholic priests and allowed to stay married (this obviously requires special permission, of course). Because of that, I would not be scandalized if the Church allowed married men to be ordained across the board (although it would take some getting used to). But more to the point: isn't the aversion to celibacy more of a cultural thing? In years past, there was more of a respect of the Church and traditional sexual morals. Instead of trying to have the Church change to fit the culture, why not have the culture change to fit the Church?
M.SIGGA Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 It may just be MATH, pure simple math that changes back the Celibate Priesthood distinctive... Without a REAL increase in the number of seminarians [ now about 4-5,000 down from 40K in the sixties ] and the average age in the USA of practicing diocesan priests now 63, the Catholic Church will face empty parishes, and will have to resort to importing foreign priests. And in Europe this is true for the most part and other nations too. So, given this MATH issue... and the needs..... When do you think the Pope or another succesor will have to change this doctrinal distinctive? This really is a question that is being asked within the Catholic Church all over the place too, so I'm interested in what the "Uber Catholics" [ my term for the ultra's here ... grin ] for the record, the U.S. has always been designated by the Vatican as a missionary nation and many of the priests in the United States have always come from afar, mostly Western Europe. From what Paladin said is the reason why there are less now in the West. I won't say that you failed in your post, but you might not be aware that the Catholic Seminaries in Latin America, the Carribean, and in Africa and Asia are booming with seminarians and converts, so much that many are having to be sent to the West for education because their aren't enough seminaries in their own countries. If the need calls for more foriegn priests, then fine. In the U.S. they will start to come from the 3rd World instead of W. Europe. The Church isn't an "American" entity - American Catholics aren't given any sort of priority over other Catholics around the world - the Church won't change just because America wants to become irreligious and secular.
jasJis Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 As it appears, Bruce likes to plant discord and dissruption... He will play it off as if he is sencere. But all he wants to do is push buttons. "Boink!" said the apple on Newton's head. :thatsfunny:
PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 (edited) i once read a letter to the editor in a catholic magazine from a woman who asked, if we allow priests to marry and have kids, who is going to set up their college funds? i thought it was an interesting point since priests are (in my understanding) dependent upon the Church for living expenses. God forbid the day that people consider the priesthood simply another career!! Sigga, good point! God is still working in people's hearts and calling them to the priesthood in other parts of the world. good thing the whole world does not consist of the US only. we like foreign priests anyway, it reminds us of what heaven will be like: multicultural :P Edited January 23, 2004 by PatrickRitaMichael
Paladin D Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 Hey M.SIGGA, is there a list somewhere of what the Vatican labels as "missionary nations"? I would understand the United States being one, but what are the others?
jrndveritatis Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 It is not a doctrine, rather it is a discipline. The Pope can change it whenever he wants to. But it won't be changed.
willguy Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 Right now, 15% of all parishes are without a priest and they predict that 25% will in two decades given the retirement of active ones. First, I believe this is a US statistic. You have to remember, we are a CATHOLIC (universal, meaning everywhere) church. The pope isn't going to bend over backwards for one country, even (perhaps especially) the US. Second, what's your point? God will provide. I pray that the discipline of priestly celibacy is NEVER repealed. I pray that it becomes doctrine, or even dogma.
M.SIGGA Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 Hey M.SIGGA, is there a list somewhere of what the Vatican labels as "missionary nations"? I would understand the United States being one, but what are the others? All nations that were never designated "Catholic Countries" are considered missionary countries. Catholic nations sent out thousands of missionaries to convert the pagan world to Christianity, which was mainly accomplished through the efforts of the Jesuits, Dominicans, and the Franciscans. The U.S. for example was founded as a secular state with Protestant ethics and principles. The Church ordered mass numbers of priests and nuns to move along with people who decided to imigrate to the New World from Catholic countries. The immigration from Europe continued in large waves until WWII, so there was a constant flow of European priests and nuns and seminarians. Now the flow is comming in from heavily Catholic Nations in the Southern Hemisphere that were preserved from the West's Americanism and secularization. America's irreligious and secular way of life is a big problem in fostering vocations in the West, so our seminaries don't grow that fast and they began declining after the 1950s. Europe's secular anti-clericalism has been snoballing since Revolutionary France and Napoleon. Ethinc minorty communities in all nations are also considered missionary outreaches, ex. African Americans, Latinos in the U.S., Native Americans, Vietnamese Americans, etc. I was told this by a missionary who visited my parish, but try http://www.vatican.va or http://www.catholicextension.org or look it up on the web for more details.
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