Double Predistination And St. Augustine

[Mateo el Feo]

Another claim from my little philosophy book. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=64461"]See this link for the first thread[/url].

Here's the quote (page 59). Underline is mine:[quote]Augustine believed that the first man, Adam, set the pattern for all future life of men. Adam, he taught, committed sin and thus handed on to all men the effects of this sin. He corrupted the entire human race, so that all men are condemned to sin for all times. Adam's sin, therefore, is hereditary. But God can reform the corrupted man by his grace. [u]And God has chosen certain men for salvation and certain others for eternal punishment.[/u]This is the doctrine known as "predestination."[/quote]I'm most concerned with the second to last statement, which is "double predestination." I think that this is a Calvinist view of St. Augustine. With some help from Catholic.com ([url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp"]link[/url]), I tracked down a little text from one of St. Augustine's tracts on the Gospel of St. John ([url="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.xxvii.html"]link[/url]):
[quote]“Murmur not among yourselves: no man can come unto me, except the Father that sent me draw him.” Noble excellence of grace! No man comes unless drawn. There is whom He draws, and there is whom He draws not; why He draws one and draws not another, do not desire to judge, if thou desirest not to err. Accept it at once and then understand; thou art not yet drawn? Pray that thou mayest be drawn.[/quote]Apparently, this is a text used by Calvinists to "prove" that St. Augustine believed in double predestination. I find it a bit annoying that this author is trying to take a misrepresentation of St. Augustine's teachings, and then generalize with a conclusion that the entire Early Church believed in double predestination.

Comments?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

God desires that all men come to a knowledge of truth and be saved. God does not make men with that intention and then not call them and draw them. God draws all men to Himself, but not all answer. The Calvinist view seems to imply that if God draws you to Himself, then you are going to be saved, but this is only if we cooperate...as we see in the Gospel, some came to the wedding feast and were thrown out because they were not prepared.

[beatty07]

I'd agree that this particular text need not imply double predestination, but the author's claim is pretty widely held. I seem to see a consensus that Augustine's views, at least later in his life, tended toward double predestination. I've read texts that are tough to interpret any other way, but I can't look them up now.

Consensus is a matter of perspective, so maybe I'm wrong there. Either way, if Augustine did hold that, the Church has clearly left it far behind. It certainly wouldn't be the only thing we've departed from his thought about.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote]“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, [b][u]which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies[/u][/b]. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” [b]Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).[/b][/quote][quote]“Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, [b][u]we believe also in the Holy Church, [intending thereby] assuredly the Catholic[/u][/b]. For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. [b][u]Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same[/u][/b].” [/b]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1304.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1304.htm[/url][/quote][quote]"[u]You think that you make a very acute remark when you affirm the name Catholic to mean universal[/u], [u][b]not in respect to the communion as embracing the whole world, but in respect to the observance of all Divine precepts and of all the sacraments[/b][/u], as if we (even accepting the position that the Church is called Catholic because it honestly holds the whole truth, of which fragments here and there are found in some heresies) rested upon the testimony of this word's signification, and not upon the promises of God, and so many indisputable testimonies of the truth itself, our demonstration of the existence of the Church of God in all nations." Augustine[b], To Vincent the Rogatist, 93:7,23 (A.D. 403)[/b].
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102093.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102093.htm[/url][/quote]Oops? What is this? It seems that Saint Augustine very clearly believes that the Catholic Church is the true Church even going on to say that it is not merely all the communities of belief put together, but that it is the Church. Likewise statements can be made and found so to the author even if their interpretation was true cannot be used in this manner for clearly Saint Augustine would of rejected their separation from the Church. Likewise the Papcy...[quote]"Peter bore the person of the church.” [b]Augustine, Sermon 149:7 (inter A.D. 391-430).[/b][/quote][quote]“Number the priests even from that seat of Peter. And in that order of fathers see to whom succeeded: that is the rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer.” [b]Augustine, Psalmus contro Partem Donati (A.D. 393)[/b]. [/quote] Futher on salvation athough...

[quote]"And he who has not this love, 'though he speak with the tongues of men and angels, is sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal; and though he have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and though he have all faith, so that he can remove mountains, he is nothing; and though he bestow all his goods to feed the poor, and though he give his body to be burned, it profiteth him nothing.' How great a good, then, is that without which goods so great bring no one to eternal life! But love or charity itself,--for they are two names for one thing,--if he have it that does not speak with tongues, nor has the gift of prophecy, nor knows all mysteries and all knowledge, nor gives all his goods to the poor, either because he has none to give or because some necessity hinders, nor delivers his body to be burned, if no trial of such a suffering overtakes him, brings that man to the kingdom, so that faith itself is only rendered profitable by love, since faith without love can indeed exist, but cannot profit. And therefore also the Apostle Paul says, 'In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith that worketh by love:' so distinguishing it from that faith by which even 'the devils believe and tremble.' Love, therefore, which is of God and is God, is specially the Holy Spirit, by whom the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts, by which love the whole Trinity dwells in us. And therefore most rightly is the Holy Spirit, although He is God, called also the gift of God. And by that gift what else can properly be understood except love, which brings to God, and without which any other gift of God whatsoever does not bring to God?" [b]Augustine, On the Trinity, 15:18,32 (A.D. 416)[/b]. [/quote] [quote]"And, consequently, both those who have not heard the gospel, and those who, having heard it and been changed by it for the better, have not received perseverance, and those who, having heard the gospel, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe on Him, since He Himself says, 'No man cometh unto me, except it were given him of my Father,' and those who by their tender age were unable to believe, but might be absolved from original sin by the sole layer of regeneration, and yet have not received this laver, and have perished in death: are not made to differ from that lump which it is plain is condemned, as all go from one into condemnation." Augustine[b], On Rebuke and Grace, 12 (A.D. 427).[/b]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1513.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1513.htm[/url][/quote]
[quote]"The faith of these, which worketh by love, either actually does not fail at all, or, if there are any whose faith fails, it is restored before their life is ended, and the iniquity which had intervened is done away, [u][b]and perseverance even to the end is allotted to them[/b][/u]. [u]But they who are not to persevere, and who shall so fall away from Christian faith and conduct that the end of this life shall find them in that case, beyond all doubt are not to be reckoned in the number of these, even in that season wherein they are living well and piously[/u]. For they are not made to differ from that mass of perdition by the foreknowledge and predestination of God, and therefore are not called according to God's purpose, and thus are not elected.” Augustine[b], On Rebuke and Grace, 16 (A.D. 427).[/b]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1513.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1513.htm[/url][/quote][quote]"It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children--whom He has regenerated in Christ--to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, [u]God does not give perseverance also[/u]." Augustine[b], On Rebuke and Grace, 18 (A.D. 427)[/b].
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1513.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1513.htm[/url][/quote][quote]"Let the inquirer still go on, and say, 'Why is it that to some who have in good faith worshipped Him He has not given to persevere to the end?' Why except because he does not speak falsely who says, 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, doubtless they would have continued with us.' Are there, then, two natures of men? By no means. If there were two natures there would not be any grace, for there would be given a gratuitous deliverance to none if it were paid as a debt to nature. But it seems to men that all who appear good believers ought to receive perseverance to the end. [u]But God has judged it to be better to mingle some who would not persevere with a certain number of His saints, so that those for whom security from temptation in this life is not desirable may not be secure[/u]." [b]Augustine, On the Gift of Perseverance, 19 (A.D. 429)[/b].
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm[/url][/quote]A little bit of reading but I hope this helps...

Edited February 12, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[beatty07]

I'm afraid I don't follow. I didn't think Augustine's definition of the Catholic Church was in question, nor was his belief that she is the true Church. It's helpful to know that he defines the elect as those who persevere, but I'm not sure that sheds any light on his views about double predestination. Doesn't it seem tautological that those who apostasize in a final way are not among the elect?

[Mr.Cat]

I quoted from several sources to show that a single individual cannot be quoted to prove a Calvinist theology or perspective for it must be taken into context. Further because of the strong statements made regarding the true church and religion it would be impossible to propose this as evidence. Which I thought I made abundantly evident outside of the actual quotes I provided. I will attempt to be cleear in the future...

[N/A Gone]

In reading Augustine you must remember something. He has his original writing, but then he wrote the retractions as he got older. Im sure you could google something on this. But in reading his original words, and then the retractions. In context, in complete form. For someone to come up with double predestination or other calvinistic (and luther, but not lutheran) soteriology is inserting into the text. De libro is the book the best reflects Augustins view of metaphysical physiology and I have read it twice and would never consider it to provide evidence for calvin.

[beatty07]

ok, gotcha. Thanks. I definitely agree that Calvinism is wrong. What I'm suggesting is that Augustine seems to have held rather Calvinist ideas about double predestination. We can ask this question because it's okay for Augustine to be wrong about this. It doesn't make him a heretic or the Church not the Church.

The standard line is that "later Augustine" taught a pretty clear double predestination. I know I've read texts that would strongly support that interpretation, but don't have them on hand. Hopefully some Augustine expert will wander along and help us out with this question!

here's an example of that standard line I mentioned. This article pretty much sums up what I've always heard and read about Augustine and predestination.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.htm[/url]

If someone disagrees and offers a different interpretation of Augustine, that could be interesting!

[edit: just saw rev's post. So you're saying the whole "early Augustine"/"late Augustine" thing is really just a failure of context?]

Edited February 12, 2007 by beatty07

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='beatty07' post='1192632' date='Feb 12 2007, 05:37 PM'][edit: just saw rev's post. So you're saying the whole "early Augustine"/"late Augustine" thing is really just a failure of context?][/quote]

I know this is late, but yes. Augustine post-retraction contridicts augustine pre-retractions. Many augustianians like myself do not put much into the late retractions

[jswranch]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1191705' date='Feb 11 2007, 03:25 PM']Apparently, this is a text used by Calvinists to "prove" that St. Augustine believed in double predestination. I find it a bit annoying that this author is trying to take a misrepresentation of St. Augustine's teachings, and then generalize with a conclusion that the entire Early Church believed in double predestination.

Comments?[/quote]

Are the Calvinists and Augustine talking about the same thing?

[quote]There is whom He draws, and there is whom He draws not; why He draws one and draws not another, do not desire to judge, if thou desirest not to err. Accept it at once and then understand; thou art not yet drawn? Pray that thou mayest be drawn.[/quote]
Ok, drawn to what? The Calvinists would say drawn to faith which would lead to salvation. Is that what Augustine means? Perhaps the quote from the Doctor is about something else than salvation, such as great sainthood, apostleship, or as an excellent witness to Christ. We can suppose there will be Christians who go to heaven without ever being called to such excellent offices or examples.