The Cc Teach You Can't Understand

[Truth]

The Knowledge of God According to the Church

36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".12

37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:

Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. the human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13

38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God's revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also "about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error".14

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11 Vatican Council I, Dei Filius 2: DS 3004 cf. 3026; Vatican Council

II, Dei Verbum 6.

12 Cf. ⇒ Gen 1:27

13 Pius XII, Humani generis 561: DS 3875.

14 Pius XII, Humani generis 561: DS 3876; cf. Dei Filius 2: DS 3005;

DV 6; St. Thomas Aquinas, S Th I, I, I.

You see this is what I have been tell you Guy you are told you can't understand just because you don't have the ability to understand. The Holy Spirit is the key to understanding, but you must truly be baptized to receive it.

[Dave]

How do you know that you're correct? Why couldn't you be wrong? Are you infallible?

[Aloysius]

i acknowledge my human weakness, i acknowlege that God has given me the power to decide for or against His will, even if i'm baptized. i acknowledge that my fallen humanity effects what i interpret things to mean. i humbly submit myself to what scripture calls a Pillar and Fire of Truth.

you've received the Holy Spirit. so have a lot of people who DISAGREE WITH YOU. i received the HOly SPirit, I let Him guide me, I safeguard my thoughts by things i know have been guided by Him without human weakness currupting it. therefore, i am guided by the Spirit to believe things, but it is still ME who seeks knowledge and it is still ME who has temptation to interpret things the way i want them to be, therefore, i test whether my interpretation is guided by the Spirit or by the flesh by checking it against the Church's teaching which is ALWAYS guided by the Spirit :cool:

[Laudate_Dominum]

Truth! Good to see you my friend. I must say, your taste in books has greatly increased since I first encountered you.

You see this is what I have been tell you Guy you are told you can't understand just because you don't have the ability to understand. The Holy Spirit is the key to understanding, but you must truly be baptized to receive it.

Truth my pal, maybe it's the other way around! Maybe you are being led to the Church because it's true! If you are Baptized I'm sure the Holy Spirit will lead you to the Catholic Church if you are open to it. If you have been conditioned by anti-catholic biases and have lot's of misconceptions and misinformation about the Church it might take a long time. Actually Our Lady converted Alphonse Rattisbonne instantly and gave him infused Catholicism! I will ask Our Lady to hook you up with that!

Love ya.

[jmjtina]

The Church promotes bible reading and study, recommending that all the faithful read the bible stating, “Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.” It is the authentic interpretation that is not for ourselves to interpret on our own. ;)

[phatcatholic]

The Knowledge of God According to the Church

36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".12

37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:

Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. the human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13

38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God's revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also "about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error".14

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11 Vatican Council I, Dei Filius 2: DS 3004 cf. 3026; Vatican Council

II, Dei Verbum 6.

12 Cf. ⇒ Gen 1:27

13 Pius XII, Humani generis 561: DS 3875.

14 Pius XII, Humani generis 561: DS 3876; cf. Dei Filius 2: DS 3005;

DV 6; St. Thomas Aquinas, S Th I, I, I.

You see this is what I have been tell you Guy you are told you can't understand just because you don't have the ability to understand. The Holy Spirit is the key to understanding, but you must truly be baptized to receive it.

larry,

i read what u posted several times and i honestly don't see where it says that the Church believes that we are so ignorant that it must tell us everything. to me it says that all men have the capacity to reason and to know God, but that the stain of original sin and our own selfish will keeps us from knowing Him as we ought.

first of all, any role the Church would play in this is not even mentioned in the post. secondly, where does it say that the Church does not believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to lead its members to truth?

maybe you are looking too hard for a "fact" that is not there.....

Good Luck and God Bless You in your search for Truth,

phatcatholic

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

What makes you think the Catechism will convert people here?

Edited January 24, 2004 by thedude

[jrndveritatis]

This quote simply affirms that revelation is necessary because even though we can prove God's existence, that is about all we can know about God, and even though we have the natural law inscribed on our hearts, it is often clouded by our rationalizations.

Truth, I bet you agree that revelation is necessary because human reason can't do it all. Right?

Would I be correct in guessing that you believe that we need the Bible to teach us because our reason can't do it all?

For Catholics, the Church is the guardian of revelation, of the deposit of the faith. In fact the Bible came from the Catholic Church, and only has any authority because the Church compiled and canonized it. You cannot deny that the Bible did not really exist per se until the 300s AD. Where did revelation come from before then?

[Bruce S]

In fact the Bible came from the Catholic Church, and only has any authority because the Church compiled and canonized it.

Wow.

YOU wrote the Bible, the ENTIRE bible? And THUS the Catholic church CONFERS the "only authority" in it's pages?

Darn. Should have copyrighted it.

Of course, most CHRISTIANS might think that the Jews and God had some SMALL, itsy bitsy part in all of that writing...

But, hey, what do we Protestants know?

How do you say....

BULLFEATHERS.... in Latin? Since Latin is the favorite way of expression here?

[Paladin D]

Wow.

YOU wrote the Bible, the ENTIRE bible? And THUS the Catholic church CONFERS the "only authority" in it's pages?

Darn. Should have copyrighted it.

Of course, most CHRISTIANS might think that the Jews and God had some SMALL, itsy bitsy part in all of that writing...

But, hey, what do we Protestants know?

How do you say....

BULLFEATHERS.... in Latin? Since Latin is the favorite way of expression here?

I believe he met the New Testament. Since we believe the Catholic Church was founded in 33AD. We also canonized it.

[Truth]

You should understand that the Bible is the Word of God but not the only Word of God I have given you many other source of the Word of God, the Bible OT came from the Jews, and the NT is after Christ. The Catholics didn't put the Bible together because at that time the CC did not established. The early Church was established 300+ years before the CC. Again the CC should stop taking credit for the Early Church (EC). The church in Rome established before any of the Apostle ever went to Rome. The CC keep trying to base it start on Pete, but he only died there. If you were to base it on an Apostle it should be Paul.

[Bruce S]

We also canonized it.

Indeed? Sheesh. Again I note, I thought Christians did that too?

I might remind everyone, for the umpteenth time, that most Protestant SCHOLARS read the same early church leaders, opinion papers, etc, as the Catholic Church.

Only we are NOT completely "hung up" on insisting a DENOMINATION was at work then.

WE...isn't WE...or US, it was THEM, and THEM were Christians, not Roman Catholics.

[Paladin D]

You should understand that the Bible is the Word of God but not the only Word of God I have given you many other source of the Word of God, the Bible OT came from the Jews, and the NT is after Christ. The Catholics didn't put the Bible together because at that time the CC did not established. The early Church was established 300+ years before the CC. Again the CC should stop taking credit for the Early Church (EC). The church in Rome established before any of the Apostle ever went to Rome. The CC keep trying to base it start on Pete, but he only died there. If you were to base it on an Apostle it should be Paul.

Stop taking credit away from the CC. The CC was the Early Church.

[Truth]

This quote simply affirms that revelation is necessary because even though we can prove God's existence, that is about all we can know about God, and even though we have the natural law inscribed on our hearts, it is often clouded by our rationalizations.

Truth, I bet you agree that revelation is necessary because human reason can't do it all. Right?

Would I be correct in guessing that you believe that we need the Bible to teach us because our reason can't do it all?

For Catholics, the Church is the guardian of revelation, of the deposit of the faith. In fact the Bible came from the Catholic Church, and only has any authority because the Church compiled and canonized it. You cannot deny that the Bible did not really exist per se until the 300s AD. Where did revelation come from before then?

It confirm only that the man in his own nature can not understand what is spirit. The Holy Spirit give understanding of what is spirit. You base you insight into what is spirit on the CC alone. Christ gave us all instruction on getting what we needed to understand the will of the Father. Faith and Baptism, no more or less.

[Truth]

Truth! Good to see you my friend. I must say, your taste in books has greatly increased since I first encountered you.

Truth my pal, maybe it's the other way around! Maybe you are being led to the Church because it's true! If you are Baptized I'm sure the Holy Spirit will lead you to the Catholic Church if you are open to it. If you have been conditioned by anti-catholic biases and have lot's of misconceptions and misinformation about the Church it might take a long time. Actually Our Lady converted Alphonse Rattisbonne instantly and gave him infused Catholicism! I will ask Our Lady to hook you up with that!

Love ya.

The Holy Spirit is just that Holy and would not lead me to the un-holy CC. For it is the Woman in Rev.

[Bruce S]

Stop taking credit away from the CC. The CC was the Early Church.

Sorry.

Denominational bias, that is all that leads you believe that.

Go to any "Orthodox Board" they claim YOU stole it from THEM, and if you really want to be completely accurate, go to any Messianic Jewish site, they claim EVERYONE stole it away from THEM!

Of course, I can chuckle at that all, and NOTE how very similar are the denominational biases of the R-CC.

[Truth]

larry,

i read what u posted several times and i honestly don't see where it says that the Church believes that we are so ignorant that it must tell us everything. to me it says that all men have the capacity to reason and to know God, but that the stain of original sin and our own selfish will keeps us from knowing Him as we ought.

first of all, any role the Church would play in this is not even mentioned in the post. secondly, where does it say that the Church does not believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to lead its members to truth?

maybe you are looking too hard for a "fact" that is not there.....

Good Luck and God Bless You in your search for Truth,

phatcatholic

The CC know that you are because you have not received the Holy Spirit.

[Paladin D]

Indeed? Sheesh. Again I note, I thought Christians did that too?

I might remind everyone, for the umpteenth time, that most Protestant SCHOLARS read the same early church leaders, opinion papers, etc, as the Catholic Church.

Only we are NOT completely "hung up" on insisting a DENOMINATION was at work then.

WE...isn't WE...or US, it was THEM, and THEM were Christians, not Roman Catholics.

Bruce, please explain to me...

How would a former-Pentecostal/AOG believer, come to realize the truth of Catholicism? I started my search for truth, and I found it. I wasn't raised in this particular belief system, I chose it!

So what you seem to be implying is, that since Catholics are loyal to the Church... they are assumingly wrong when it comes to historical accounts that are in their favor?

Notice how you mentioned Protestant SCHOLARS, they are biased.

[Truth]

The key is THE HOLY SPIRIT. The WORD OF GOD IS OF SPIRIT not of man.

Edited January 24, 2004 by Truth

[Bruce S]

Bruce, please explain to me...

How would a former-Pentecostal/AOG believer, come to realize the truth of Catholicism? I started my search for truth, and I found it. I wasn't raised in this particular belief system, I chose it!

So what you seem to be implying is, that since Catholics are loyal to the Church... they are assumingly wrong when it comes to historical accounts that are in their favor?

Notice how you mentioned Protestant SCHOLARS, they are biased.

You went THAT WAY... I came THIS WAY, funny how all roads DON'T "Lead to Rome"

I think that any Protestant that doesn't take the time to inform themselves about CHRISTIAN history, writings, and battles, is one that takes things at face value and could benefit greatly FROM those that have gone before us.

Now, I note in passing, that the founders of Protestantism, in all of its glorious variety, were NOT ignorant dolts. Calvin, Luther, Wycliff, Huss, were ALL first, Catholic SCHOLARS, note and re-read that again. ALL Catholic scholars.

They were blessed with the skill, insights, and prodding from God to UNBUNDLE the message of salvation from man made denominational baggage. Rather like Jesus himself had to do with Judaism.

Jews had added so much to the message over the centuries that the underlying Covenent relationship with God was gone, and so, had the Covenent relationship with Jesus been burdened with even more denominational baggage, prompting the Reformation. Later on Pentecostals "rediscovered" the Spirit of God that had been buried under formalized dogma's, and re-envigorated all Christianity ... including the Catholic Church who ... along with everyone else, had settled into a ritualized Christianity.

Just worth noting.