Freedom Of Speech And Holocaust Denial

[SJRod55]

Taking the role of the Devils Advocate.... when do the rights of the individual and therefore the right of free speech conflict or pose a threat or danger to the rights of another individual or group? When do you cross the line between your right for freedom of speech and another person or groups right to be 'safe' and 'secure'.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]I hate to bring this up, but the Pope / Vatican weren't exactly in the forefront of defending human rights during the period in question (although I would qualify that by saying there were plenty of religious who did the right thing, e.g. St. Maximilian Kolbe).[/quote]

I wasn't trying to say whether the Pope was defending human rights (which they were, BTW). I was making the following point:

It is incorrect to say "One can believe whatever he wants as long as he accepts the Dogmata and Doctrine of the Catholic Church"
One must also believe in the historicity and validity of the Popes, Ecumenical Councils and Bishops of the Catholic Church and of the documents promulgated by Popes and Ecumenical Councils (and probably in certain instances, Bishops).

Other than these things, though, one may believe whatever he wants if it is good for his faith.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Rod' post='1196915' date='Feb 16 2007, 12:13 PM']Taking the role of the Devils Advocate.... when do the rights of the individual and therefore the right of free speech conflict or pose a threat or danger to the rights of another individual or group? When do you cross the line between your right for freedom of speech and another person or groups right to be 'safe' and 'secure'.[/quote]

LEGALLY, I think, at least with regards to US law, limiting speech usually depends on a "true threat" of physical harm. For instance, in Virginia v. Black, the Supreme Court ruled that states could only prosecute cases of cross-burning if it was clear that the gesture was meant to intimidate or suggest violence (burning a cross on someone's lawn, for instance).

But if the Klan held a rally on their own property and burned a cross as a part of the "festivities," however, that would merely be an expression of a political opinion and couldn't be prosecuted, even though many, many people would find it deeply offensive.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1197185' date='Feb 16 2007, 05:35 PM']LEGALLY, I think, at least with regards to US law, limiting speech usually depends on a "true threat" of physical harm. For instance, in Virginia v. Black, the Supreme Court ruled that states could only prosecute cases of cross-burning if it was clear that the gesture was meant to intimidate or suggest violence (burning a cross on someone's lawn, for instance).

But if the Klan held a rally on their own property and burned a cross as a part of the "festivities," however, that would merely be an expression of a political opinion and couldn't be prosecuted, even though many, many people would find it deeply offensive.[/quote]

I don't get why the KKK burns crosses... isn't burning crosses anti-Christian (unless of course done respectfully to a worn-out blessed crucifix)? The KKK are supposed to be protestants...

[Didymus]

no, I think it's 'burning crosses' as in pouring gasoline on the grown in the form of a cross and lighting it. At least that's what I thought it meant.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1196782' date='Feb 16 2007, 02:05 AM']"Holocaust denial" is neither a pretty nor ugly thing... it is morally neutral unless spurred by hatred for the Jewish race (Distinct from the Talmudic religion), in which case it would be evil.[/quote]
Lying is never morally neutral.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1196881' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:22 AM']I hate to bring this up, but the Pope / Vatican weren't exactly in the forefront of defending human rights during the period in question (although I would qualify that by saying there were plenty of religious who did the right thing, e.g. St. Maximilian Kolbe).[/quote]

THIS is absolutely untrue.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1196890' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:47 AM']see, this is what i am talking about. How do you know that? that could be a lie, or completely made up.[/quote]
Wrong. The germans meticulously recorded how many people they murdered. Millions of catholics died as well, NOT just the jews.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1197213' date='Feb 16 2007, 08:26 PM']I don't get why the KKK burns crosses... isn't burning crosses anti-Christian (unless of course done respectfully to a worn-out blessed crucifix)? The KKK are supposed to be protestants...[/quote]

I read somewhere that they believe the burning cross is a good way of showing that Jesus Christ is the Light of the World... how twisted.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1197216' date='Feb 16 2007, 06:29 PM']Lying is never morally neutral.[/quote]

It's not lying. You are free to believe what you want about the "Holocaust" (I personally think it's sick and twisted to refer to it as that since holocuast means burnt offering and not a mass murder of a race). As was stated, all on has to believe in is the Dogmata and Doctrines, that is, everything contained in the Scripture and Tradition, and the historicity and validity of the Popes, Bishops and Oecumenical Councils.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1197291' date='Feb 16 2007, 09:51 PM']It's not lying. You are free to believe what you want about the "Holocaust" (I personally think it's sick and twisted to refer to it as that since holocuast means burnt offering and not a mass murder of a race). As was stated, all on has to believe in is the Dogmata and Doctrines, that is, everything contained in the Scripture and Tradition, and the historicity and validity of the Popes, Bishops and Oecumenical Councils.[/quote]
To go around denying the holocaust happened is a lie and that IS a sin.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1197296' date='Feb 16 2007, 07:56 PM']To go around denying the holocaust happened is a lie and that IS a sin.[/quote]

Not if you don't believe it happened or don't believe the six million number.

[Socrates]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1196709' date='Feb 15 2007, 11:48 PM']"Holocaust denying", that is, denying the historicity of the claim that six million Talmudic Jews (as opposed to Old Testament Jews) were murdered by order of Adolf Hitler, is in no way immoral. It does not deny or doubt any of Dogmata or Doctrine of the Church nor does it sin against any of the Natural Law, Divine Law or Church Law. Therefore, any man may believe anything he wants to about the claim that six million Talmudic Jews (as opposed to Old Testament Jews) were murdered by order of Adolf Hitler.[/quote]
The distinction about "Talmudic Jews (as opposed to Old Testament Jews)" is silly and pointless here. The murder of 6 million (or whatever the number may be) human beings is wrong and horrific, period. It is stupid and offensive to act as though referring to them as "Talmudic Jews" somehow makes the Nazis' crime more acceptable.

[quote]The only thing a man must believe about that time period would be historicity of the Pope and Catholic bishops during the AD 1940s and historicity and validity of the documents and pronouncements issued by him alone or with them.[/quote]
While that may be true in terms of whether or not one is defined as a heretic or schismatic, as Catholics we should have more regard for the truth than that. Spreading falsehood of any kind is wrong, and Catholics should be careful to only teach the truth, and make a sincere effort to learn what the truth is. Simply saying it does not matter at all what one believes historically, so long as it does not involve religious heresy or schism shows a callous disregard for truth which should be foreign to the true Catholic.

[Socrates]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1196881' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:22 AM']I hate to bring this up, but the Pope / Vatican weren't exactly in the forefront of defending human rights during the period in question (although I would qualify that by saying there were plenty of religious who did the right thing, e.g. St. Maximilian Kolbe).[/quote]
The idea that the Pope and Vatican did nothing to protect the Jews during the Nazi Holocaust is an anti-Catholic lie, and one that did not even develop until the late 1960s, well after the events of the Holoaust. The truth is that the Catholic Church did more than any other political/religious body to save Jewish lives at this time, and most Jews of the time gratefully recognized this, the Chief Rabbi of Rome even converting to Catholicism after the war.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat/344"][b]Here's a list of links to articles on this topic from Phatmass' Defense Directory: "The Church and the Holocaust."[/b][/url]

That should be enough top keep you reading for a while!

Edited February 17, 2007 by Socrates

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1197332' date='Feb 16 2007, 10:14 PM']Not if you don't believe it happened or don't believe the six million number.[/quote]

The germans THEMSELVES recorded how many people they murdered. My father SAW the death camps and the crematoria and brought back photographs from Germany. He was a soldier in France and Germany.
My husbands cousins DIED in the polish deathcamps.

To say you don't believe it happened is to deny the persecution of your OWN CHURCH that you claim to belong to, and to dishonor the Catholics priests, nuns, sisters and laity who died in the camps at the hands of their murderers.

[Aloysius]

at best, holocaust denial is ignorant and horrible history. at worst, it's culpable ignorance fueled by hatred and thus sinful against the eighth and fifth commandments.

if you are culpable for your ignorance of the history and you spread ignorant history around then you certainly do sin against the Eighth Commandment in bearing false witness. If done with the purpose of inciting hatred then you also break the Fifth Commandment.

It is possible that one is not culpable for their ignorance of the history and then they would not be culpable for the sin of lying. But it is a sin against the eighth commandment regardless, for it is a sin against truth. It's just whether or not you are culpable for it.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]The distinction about "Talmudic Jews (as opposed to Old Testament Jews)" is silly and pointless here. The murder of 6 million (or whatever the number may be) human beings is wrong and horrific, period. It is stupid and offensive to act as though referring to them as "Talmudic Jews" somehow makes the Nazis' crime more acceptable.[/quote]I always try to make the distinction between Talmudic Jews and Old Testament Jews becuase they are completely different things. The Old Testament Religion has been fufilled in the New Testament Religion, that is, the Catholic Religion.

And, BTW, 12 million persons died in the holocaust (including two million Catholics), not just the alleged six million Talmudic Jews (not to try to minimalize what happened to many Talmudic Jews).

[quote]While that may be true in terms of whether or not one is defined as a heretic or schismatic, as Catholics we should have more regard for the truth than that. Spreading falsehood of any kind is wrong, and Catholics should be careful to only teach the truth, and make a sincere effort to learn what the truth is. Simply saying it does not matter at all what one believes historically, so long as it does not involve religious heresy or schism shows a callous disregard for truth which should be foreign to the true Catholic.[/quote]

Of course lying is wrong, but if one believes that there were less than six million Talmudic Jews killed in the 'Holocaust' it's not lying.

[quote]To say you don't believe it happened is to deny the persecution of your OWN CHURCH that you claim to belong to, and to dishonor the Catholics priests, nuns, sisters and laity who died in the camps at the hands of their murderers.[/quote]

I never said I was a 'holocaust denier', I merely said that it is not wrong to be one. I do believe that only 5 million Talmudic Jews were murdered, though.

Of course no Catholic can never morally deny the historicity of the canonized Catholic Saints that were murdered at the hands of the Nazis in the 1940s or therabouts, becuase canonizations are authoritative if not infallible.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1197291' date='Feb 16 2007, 08:51 PM']It's not lying. You are free to believe what you want about the "Holocaust" (I personally think it's sick and twisted to refer to it as that since holocuast means burnt offering and not a mass murder of a race). As was stated, all on has to believe in is the Dogmata and Doctrines, that is, everything contained in the Scripture and Tradition, and the historicity and validity of the Popes, Bishops and Oecumenical Councils.[/quote]
It was referred to as the Holocaust becuase they WERE burned. Not to mention that holocaust ALSO means "a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life, especially through fire."

[MissScripture]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1197653' date='Feb 17 2007, 12:59 AM']I never said I was a 'holocaust denier', I merely said that it is not wrong to be one. I do believe that only 5 million Talmudic Jews were murdered, though.[/quote]
Why do you arbitrarily pick 5 million? Like CMom said, the Nazis recorded every thing they did. Historically, the Germans were big on records, and the Nazis were no different in that regard. Not to mention, since those numbers DID come from the Nazis, why would they lie and say they killed MORE?

Edited February 17, 2007 by MissScripture

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1197451' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:15 PM']The idea that the Pope and Vatican did nothing to protect the Jews during the Nazi Holocaust is an anti-Catholic lie, and one that did not even develop until the late 1960s, well after the events of the Holoaust. The truth is that the Catholic Church did more than any other political/religious body to save Jewish lives at this time, and most Jews of the time gratefully recognized this, the Chief Rabbi of Rome even converting to Catholicism after the war.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat/344"][b]Here's a list of links to articles on this topic from Phatmass' Defense Directory: "The Church and the Holocaust."[/b][/url]

That should be enough top keep you reading for a while![/quote]

I stand corrected. Thank you for drawing my attention to these resources.