The Old Covenant, The Jews, And The New Covenant

[Akalyte]

Cant we all just hug each other and sing "all shall be well" ? lol There is no salvation outside of Christ and his church. It really doesnt matter what some modern thinkers believe. The modern mind isnt all that bright to begin with.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Akalyte

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1200159' date='Feb 19 2007, 01:04 AM']Hello everyone,

Apparently for two thousand years the idea of Supersessionism rained supreme, but after vatican II some theologians decided it was wrong. I will start of the debate with some relevant quotations:
THE 18th INTERNATIONAL CATHOLIC-JEWISH
LIAISON COMMITTEE MEETINGf

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20040708_declaration-buenos-aires_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontific...s-aires_en.html[/url]

another example of this new idea that rejects supersessionism is the new adult catechism published by the USSCB

The United States Catholic Catechism for Adults, has a heretical statement on page 131:
here are some quotes from Catholic priests and Councils that contradict this:
The Council of Florence of the 15th century solemnly defined, that [b]"It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives" if they consciously and obstinately refuse to embrace the Catholic Christian Faith.[/b] The only logical explanation for this teaching then was, that Judaism of the Old Testament had been replaced by or rather transferred to the New Testament with its own law and sacred rites. In fact this is what Popes taught throughout all centuries. [b]Pope Pius XII also re-affirmed this doctrine in his encyclical Mystici Corporis (June 29, 1943), when he authoritatively taught, that "the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished" and that "on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race.[/b]

[b] 'To such an extent, then,' says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, 'was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from the many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as Our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.'"[/b]

[b]Pope Pius XII also clearly condemned the two-path approach dividing Gentile and Jew once again as in the Old Testament, when he taught, that "Christ, by His blood, made the Jews and Gentiles one 'breaking down the middle wall of partition...in His flesh' by which the two peoples were divided; and that He made the Old Law void 'that He might make the two in Himself into one new man,' that is, the Church, and might reconcile both to God in one Body by the Cross." Hereby Pope Pius XII doctrinally affirmed, that the Church was from the beginning established for the salvation of all people, both Jews and gentiles, thereby excluding the possibility of a two-path-approach for all Roman Catholics.[/b]
Not to mention the New Testament has something to say:
And Hebrews 10:9:
”

And 2 Cor 3:11,14:
I would appreciate it someone could tell me what's up with all of the changes that have been going on here.

thanks

EENS[/quote]

Check out Romans 11:29 (and Roman 11 in general on this question), "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

Here's my take: the Old Covenant was a prefigurement of the New Covenant. Insofar as the work of Jesus is retrospective, the Old Covenant is efficacious in that it is subsumed into the New Covenant. However, I don't believe that the Old Covenant [i]by itself[/i] can save, especially in the context of anyone [i]knowingly[/i] rejecting the salvific work of Jesus.

Does that make sense?

[Aloysius]

The gifts and the call of God have not been revoked, they are irrevokable. They have been fulfilled and superceded. The new covenant is substantially the same as the old covenant... it is in the particulars that it has been changed. The particulars of the old law are definitively abrogated by the words of St. Paul... from the precepts of the Mosaic Law to the distinctive preference for the Jewish people. God had a preference for the Jewish people in old testament times; he does not have that same preference now. He did not revoke his promise, though, He fulfilled it by giving them their Messiah; He just gave that same Messiah to all the other races as well. He abrogated the particular of a preference for the Jewish race, He abrogated the particulars of the Mosaic Law.

All of God's promises to Israel are fulfilled in the Holy Catholic Church, not the nation-state of Israel, not rabinnic judaism, and not in jewish culture. These things have been formed after the abrogation of the particulars of God's covenant attempting to re-institute the particulars. Jewish culture is to take its place as an equal among all the other cultures of the Church and as an equal in the sight of God. God does not have a covenant with them as a race; He has a covenant open to the whole world which includes them. He fulfills all His covenants to the Jewish People by offering them the Church (there is even a Rite whose principle language is Hebrew. But it is an equal among rites; the Jewish people are an equal among peoples.

Whether they as a people and a religion have a special role to play as regards the final fulfillment of everything is certainly another matter. As a people, their final conversion would be like a crown jewel in the mission of the Church and thus could signify the final completion of the Church, after converting every land and every people she finally returns and converts the people from which she originated. As a religion, they would have a negative role to play in the end of the world if they had any role to play. They would represent an attempt to hold on to the abrogated particulars of the Old Covenant... their spreading of adherence to the abrogated particulars of the Old Covenant would be an undermining of the mission of the Church, a direct reversal of the mission of the Church... it would bring the world into the same state Israel was in when Christ came to Israel... so that too could signify an end of the world. Of course, it is not only rabinnic judaism which adheres to the abrogated particulars of the Old Covenant. Islam and certain sects of Protestantism do as well.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1202897' date='Feb 22 2007, 11:42 PM']The gifts and the call of God have not been revoked, they are irrevokable. They have been fulfilled and superceded. The new covenant is substantially the same as the old covenant... it is in the particulars that it has been changed. The particulars of the old law are definitively abrogated by the words of St. Paul... from the precepts of the Mosaic Law to the distinctive preference for the Jewish people. God had a preference for the Jewish people in old testament times; he does not have that same preference now. He did not revoke his promise, though, He fulfilled it by giving them their Messiah; He just gave that same Messiah to all the other races as well. He abrogated the particular of a preference for the Jewish race, He abrogated the particulars of the Mosaic Law.

All of God's promises to Israel are fulfilled in the Holy Catholic Church, not the nation-state of Israel, not rabinnic judaism, and not in jewish culture. These things have been formed after the abrogation of the particulars of God's covenant attempting to re-institute the particulars. Jewish culture is to take its place as an equal among all the other cultures of the Church and as an equal in the sight of God. God does not have a covenant with them as a race; He has a covenant open to the whole world which includes them. He fulfills all His covenants to the Jewish People by offering them the Church (there is even a Rite whose principle language is Hebrew. But it is an equal among rites; the Jewish people are an equal among peoples.

Whether they as a people and a religion have a special role to play as regards the final fulfillment of everything is certainly another matter. As a people, their final conversion would be like a crown jewel in the mission of the Church and thus could signify the final completion of the Church, after converting every land and every people she finally returns and converts the people from which she originated. As a religion, they would have a negative role to play in the end of the world if they had any role to play. They would represent an attempt to hold on to the abrogated particulars of the Old Covenant... their spreading of adherence to the abrogated particulars of the Old Covenant would be an undermining of the mission of the Church, a direct reversal of the mission of the Church... it would bring the world into the same state Israel was in when Christ came to Israel... so that too could signify an end of the world. Of course, it is not only rabinnic judaism which adheres to the abrogated particulars of the Old Covenant. Islam and certain sects of Protestantism do as well.[/quote]

Yes, that's what I meant