Thought On Marriage

[theculturewarrior]

For a long time, I didn't know if I would marry, stay single, or what, and often, I didn't feel up to snuff for marriage. That is the wrong way of looking at things. Don't pursue a life of celibacy because you don't feel good enough for marriage. Find a wife if you don't feel good enough for celibacy. Marriage is for people who aren't tough enough to make through life by themselves, and the whole process is like boot camp for us, to get ready for Heaven in ways celibates were long ago.

Don't look at celibacy as plan B. Think realistically about what you can handle. If you can make it through life with only God to guide and protect you, you probably should. The rest of us need somebody to beat the crazy out of us.

This is just my humble opinion.

Edited February 19, 2007 by theculturewarrior

[Birgitta Noel]

Hi TCW! Welcome back! I think of you often! How have you been?!

Now, I have to humbly disagree with your statement that marriage is for people who aren't tough enough to get through life alone. IMHO I'd argue that it's easier to stay celibate and single. You don't have to live for another person (other than Christ of course). Your time is all yours to discern what would be the most desirable things with which to fill it. Your responsibility is to yourself and Christ. I'm confused as to why you made this statement and am looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

Edited February 20, 2007 by The Little Way

[Nunsense]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' post='1200711' date='Feb 19 2007, 03:42 PM']The rest of us need somebody to beat the crazy out of us.

This is just my humble opinion.[/quote]

If that is your opinion of marriage, then yes, perhaps you should stay celibate. My brother and his wife have been married for 30 years and still adore each other. No one "beats" anyone else, and their 2 children are glad of that! A couple that live in love of God and raise loving children are just as holy in God's eyes as religious men and women. Christ loved little children, and made marriage a sacrament so that men and women could consecrate themselves to each other in Christ.

Married life and religious life are both vocations and should be treated with the utmost respect. One in every two marriages now ends in divorce. To be able to stay married is a holy grace, just as final profession is!

[uruviel]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1201027' date='Feb 19 2007, 09:55 PM']Married life and religious life are both vocations and should be treated with the utmost respect. One in every two marriages now ends in divorce. To be able to stay married is a holy grace, just as final profession is![/quote]

I agree with what "nunsense" has said. Marriage is tough, it certainly cannot be lasting without God and His grace, the spouses must strive everyday to grow closer to one another and to unite together with God. Constantly growing respect for one another and love. Neither single, married, nor religious life are second choice or a plan B, there are to be taken very seriously with much time, respect, prayer, and trust in the Lord. For it is not your decision, it is not up to you, God has already decided, you have to follow His will. A spouse is not there only to aid you in life or to get you through it, it is a dedication and sacrifice to and for one another. God Bless.

Edited February 20, 2007 by uruviel

[RezaMikhaeil]

I'm going to give the testimony of St. Mohreal that my daughter Naila was named after [it's her middle name]. St. Mohreal's mother desired so much to be a nun but she is quoted as saying "it wasn't God's will" and through St. Mohreal great miracles came and the blessing was far greater! I, myself, have often desired to be a monk/priest but that wasn't God's will, that which was given to me [my wife], was given through a miracle, nothing less. My wife needed me greatly, to take care of her and therefore the Priesthood/Monastic lifestyle wasn't right for me.

Reza

[Norseman82]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' post='1200711' date='Feb 19 2007, 05:42 PM']For a long time, I didn't know if I would marry, stay single, or what, and often, I didn't feel up to snuff for marriage. That is the wrong way of looking at things. Don't pursue a life of celibacy because you don't feel good enough for marriage. Find a wife if you don't feel good enough for celibacy. Marriage is for people who aren't tough enough to make through life by themselves, and the whole process is like boot camp for us, to get ready for Heaven in ways celibates were long ago.

Don't look at celibacy as plan B. Think realistically about what you can handle. If you can make it through life with only God to guide and protect you, you probably should. The rest of us need somebody to beat the crazy out of us.

This is just my humble opinion.[/quote]

It's not just "your humble opinion" - it's what the Bible says! And the ability to handle celibacy is indeed a MAJOR part of discernment for seminarians.

Nunsense, LittleWay, and uruviel, instead of criticizing TCW, you should LISTEN to the experience of seminarians and LEARN from them. TCW is a male, and I imagine you are all female, so please do not make judgments on male discernment. Leave it to us fellow males; we can relate better.

And uruviel, please cite your official source that states that "God already has decided". In the Cathechism, there is a part that states that WE are free to decide our state of life and choice of spouses.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Norseman82

[theculturewarrior]

Alright, I definitely defer to the expertise of the above posters, except the statement that I should remain celibate, and that man does not benefit from a good beating or two.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='The Little Way' post='1200955' date='Feb 19 2007, 08:33 PM']Hi TCW! Welcome back! I think of you often! How have you been?!

Now, I have to humbly disagree with your statement that marriage is for people who aren't tough enough to get through life alone. IMHO I'd argue that it's easier to stay celibate and single. You don't have to live for another person (other than Christ of course). Your time is all yours to discern what would be the most desirable things with which to fill it. Your responsibility is to yourself and Christ. I'm confused as to why you made this statement and am looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts.[/quote]

Waking up everyday alone for the rest of my life seems much more difficult than the companionship of a woman. I know how tough marriages are, but getting through life without your family to back you seems much, much tougher.

"Blessed is the man who has his quiver filled with these arrows."

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1201194' date='Feb 20 2007, 12:44 AM']It's not just "your humble opinion" - it's what the Bible says! And the ability to handle celibacy is indeed a MAJOR part of discernment for seminarians.

Nunsense, LittleWay, and uruviel, instead of criticizing TCW, you should LISTEN to the experience of seminarians and LEARN from them. TCW is a male, and I imagine you are all female, so please do not make judgments on male discernment. Leave it to us fellow males; we can relate better.

And uruviel, please cite your official source that states that "God already has decided". In the Cathechism, there is a part that states that WE are free to decide our state of life and choice of spouses.[/quote]

I was right? Wow, I had no idea! :

[Norseman82]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' post='1201202' date='Feb 20 2007, 12:55 AM']I was right? Wow, I had no idea! :[/quote]

Well, except the beating part (I assume you are joking, but if not, next time you're in Chicago and still feel the need, we'll hit the gym on open spar night).

Still looking to get the motorcycle?

Edited February 20, 2007 by Norseman82

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1201210' date='Feb 20 2007, 01:05 AM']Well, except the beating part (I assume you are joking, but if not, next time you're in Chicago and still feel the need, we'll hit the gym on open spar night).

Still looking to get the motorcycle?[/quote]

Yes, I was kidding. Well, speaking figuratively, really. Motorcycles and shotguns belong to that category of crazy that has been beaten out of me. :

[Norseman82]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' post='1201216' date='Feb 20 2007, 01:11 AM']Yes, I was kidding. Well, speaking figuratively, really. Motorcycles and shotguns belong to that category of crazy that has been beaten out of me. :[/quote]

And I was looking forward to a ride to a range to fire off a few!

Edited February 20, 2007 by Norseman82

[theculturewarrior]

She was okay with the motorcycle until I brought the shotgun into it. Riding a motorcycle without a shotgun is like eating popcorn with no butter. :

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1201194' date='Feb 19 2007, 10:44 PM']It's not just "your humble opinion" - it's what the Bible says! And the ability to handle celibacy is indeed a MAJOR part of discernment for seminarians.

Nunsense, LittleWay, and uruviel, instead of criticizing TCW, you should LISTEN to the experience of seminarians and LEARN from them. TCW is a male, and I imagine you are all female, so please do not make judgments on male discernment. Leave it to us fellow males; we can relate better.

And uruviel, please cite your official source that states that "God already has decided". In the Cathechism, there is a part that states that WE are free to decide our state of life and choice of spouses.[/quote]

Actually, I just re-read his original post and I think I misunderstood it. He isn't criticizing marriage, which I thought, he is just saying that to be able to dedicate to God is hard, and if he can do that, then he should.

We need more priests - go for it! We already have enough husbands out there - lol!

Edited February 20, 2007 by nunsense

[Birgitta Noel]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1201194' date='Feb 20 2007, 12:44 AM']It's not just "your humble opinion" - it's what the Bible says! And the ability to handle celibacy is indeed a MAJOR part of discernment for seminarians.

Nunsense, LittleWay, and uruviel, instead of criticizing TCW, you should LISTEN to the experience of seminarians and LEARN from them. TCW is a male, and I imagine you are all female, so please do not make judgments on male discernment. Leave it to us fellow males; we can relate better.

And uruviel, please cite your official source that states that "God already has decided". In the Cathechism, there is a part that states that WE are free to decide our state of life and choice of spouses.[/quote]

WOW that was more than a little harsh.

If you reread my post you'll see I wasn't talking AT ALL about seminarians or priests. I specifically said SINGLE and celibate! I wasn't criticizing him, I was asking for more clarification on his thoughts and offering my humble opinion.

Perhaps you should READ what I really posted and practice some charity next time you reply. I didn't make ANY judgment on TCW, I was sharing MY opinion. And I was really looking forward to hearing more of his thoughts on the matter.

[cmaD2006]

I think a key part of discerning a call to religious life is taking into consideration whether or not you can live the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience. This is similar for diocesan priests as well (at least the obedience, and the celibacy).

Being able to live celibacy though is part of every vocation ... but both the religious and the priest are called to forgo the physical contact that naturally occurs within the context of marriage.

St. Paul speaks about this in one of his epistles ... unluckily I don't remember which one, or where right now. If I find it I'll post it (or if someone else does so please post it). Paraphrasing it, it does say that if you would be too weak to stay chaste as a single person then by all means seek to get married.

On a side note though -- there are people who are unable to live poverty and obedience within the context of religious life; yet they are able to live it within other vocations.

Just food for thought. God bless.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='The Little Way' post='1202230' date='Feb 21 2007, 11:42 PM']WOW that was more than a little harsh.

If you reread my post you'll see I wasn't talking AT ALL about seminarians or priests. I specifically said SINGLE and celibate! I wasn't criticizing him, I was asking for more clarification on his thoughts and offering my humble opinion.

Perhaps you should READ what I really posted and practice some charity next time you reply. I didn't make ANY judgment on TCW, I was sharing MY opinion. And I was really looking forward to hearing more of his thoughts on the matter.[/quote]

My initial focus was mainly at the statement made:

[quote]
If that is your opinion of marriage, then yes, perhaps you should stay celibate.[/quote]Granted, the poster then clarified that she misunderstood TCW's original post after rereading it. And I apologize, there was little if any criticism in your post.

However, I very strenuously disagree with what you have said on two points:

1:

[quote]Now, I have to humbly disagree with your statement that marriage is for people who aren't tough enough to get through life alone.[/quote]

St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 does indeed imply that although single is better, if you can't hack it, get married.

2:

[quote]If you reread my post you'll see I wasn't talking AT ALL about seminarians or priests. I specifically said SINGLE and celibate![/quote]That is irrelevant. [i]No matter if you are single and celibate or ordained and celibate, the common denominator is you are celibate.[/i] And part of discrening either life is indeed the ability to handle celibacy - again, whether one is ordained or not. If you can't handle it, then it's not for you. And because the fact that priests do have to consider this factor is why I am bringing it up. The only difference between priests and most other singles (at least those who have not taken som esort of vow) is that priests are "locked" into singlehood for the rest of their lives, whereas singles are free to marry (provided there are no canonical impediments).

TCW sums it up best when he said:

[quote name='theculturewarrior' post='1200711' date='Feb 19 2007, 05:42 PM']
Think realistically about what you can handle.[/quote]

Confirmed by cmariadiaz:

[quote name='cmariadiaz' post='1202255' date='Feb 22 2007, 01:30 AM']I think a key part of discerning a call to religious life is taking into consideration whether or not you can live the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience. This is similar for diocesan priests as well (at least the obedience, and the celibacy).[/quote]

Which is what I was saying in my original post and is a point lost on many people pushing this stuff about "single vocation". [b]People seem to forget that not everyone can handle lifelong celibacy[/b]; in fact, I would estimate that a very small percentage can.

[Nunsense]

It seems ironical to me that most people have the biggest problem with the chastity vow. I don't know if I am being sexist in saying that I think it is harder for men to be celibate than it is for women, but celibacy has never been hard for me. I would continue to be celibate even if I never entered a convent. This is a natural state for me for some reason - and a very positive one. I do understand that for many - this is the hard part. And I guess the idea of marriage and family is a strong pull for many young people, so becoming a priest or religious seems like giving up a lot.

The most difficult vow for me however, is going to be obedience. I have a strong will and often distrust the opinion or advice of others. I pray always for the ability to follow the vow of obedience when I enter. I would find it just as hard to be in a married state, and would probably argue with my husband all the time - lol. In fact, marriage would probably be harder, because at least as a religious, I will have to see my superior as Christ in the community, which I might not do with a husband!

I think that either state is a challenge, that can only be met by following God's will for us completely. No way is "easier" than another.

[the lords sheep]

[quote]I don't know if I am being sexist in saying that I think it is harder for men to be celibate than it is for women[/quote]I wouldn't say harder, I would say different. I am a woman, and I have my own challenges with chastity that I am learning to deal with. They are different, though, than my dear seminarian friends. This is because we are not only physiologically different, but we are by our very natures different (and complementary!). We process things differently and react to things differently. But just because one's reaction is different, does not mean that it is lesser or easier, it's just not the same.


[quote]The most difficult vow for me however, is going to be obedience.

I think that either state is a challenge, that can only be met by following God's will for us completely. No way is "easier" than another.[/quote]Amen! You can't tell my grandparents, who have been married for 65 years, have gone through the Depression, a world war, and many other difficulties together, that they're vocation and their vows to one another are lesser because they have the companionship of the other. I know there are times when they would prefer NOT to have the companionship of the other for awhile. But their vocation is to always love each other. They also had the special task of giving love physical form in their 3 children, and then they had the challenge of raising those children and guiding them to be good people and good Christians. It took great strength and trust in God for them to live out this commitment for the past 65 years.

[quote]Don't pursue a life of celibacy because you don't feel good enough for marriage.[/quote]

TCW is right. Don't pursue a life of celibacy because you don't feel good enough for marriage. BUT don't pursue a life in marriage simply because you don't feel good enough for celibacy.

The truth is, on our own, we are good enough for neither one. It is only because God has given certain gifts, certain graces, that we are able to fully live any vocation (single, married, or religious). All vocations have their trials, but all vocations have their beautiful aspects too.
If your vocation discernment is based on deciding what you can or cannot handle (and I'm not necessarily saying anyone's here is), you have forgotten that on our own we can't handle either one. Take a step back, listen to God in prayer, and recognize that it's not your fears and feelings of inadequacy that will lead you to your vocation, but where God is calling you. His grace alone is sufficient.

Peace and Prayers to all who are discerning, no matter which path God is guiding them to.

In Jesus and Mary,
Lauren

Edited February 23, 2007 by the lords sheep

[Norseman82]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1203442' date='Feb 23 2007, 03:44 PM']It seems ironical to me that most people have the biggest problem with the chastity vow. I don't know if I am being sexist in saying that I think it is harder for men to be celibate than it is for women, but celibacy has never been hard for me. I[/quote]

You are not being sexist at all! As pointed out in the reply:

[quote name='the lords sheep' post='1203591' date='Feb 23 2007, 05:44 PM']I wouldn't say harder, I would say different. I am a woman, and I have my own challenges with chastity that I am learning to deal with. They are different, though, than my dear seminarian friends. This is because we are not only physiologically different, but we are by our very natures different (and complementary!). We process things differently and react to things differently. But just because one's reaction is different, does not mean that it is lesser or easier, it's just not the same.[/quote]

We need to realize that "equal does not always mean the same" and that there are differences that plain and simple will not go away. Among those differences is the fact that the "clocks" are on different schedules. I wish that more people would understand this, because I wonder if we lose a lot of males to immoral lifestyles or other denominations simply because they "give up" becuase they cannot find wives within the Church (or for that matter just encountering opposition because they are seeking wives in the first place!).