Does God Exist?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1205838' date='Feb 28 2007, 03:09 PM']I'm surprised at the low number of votes for 'are there any atheistic arguments that hold ground'. Of course there are; if there weren't we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Its important to recognize the opposition (that is atheistic) and know how to counter them. Even Aquinas found objections to the existence of God. One must know them and be able to respond to them (which he did).[/quote]
There are so few votes for atheistic arguments because people are lemmings and are scared to be honest. I presented the obvious few and was labled as an atheist or just airing a personal grudge against the RC Church. In today's world you either have to choose superficial stereotypes based on emotional opinion or what the athorities say you should agree with, or get some book education and consider yourself an expert and correct and those who disagree as uneducated or uniformed.

It's not completely unreasonable to believe in God, nor is it completely unreasonable to disbelieve in God. People can argue about what's "most" reasonable, or which is the wisest choice between two relatively reasonble alternatives, but it's just plain stupid and intellectually dishonest to dismiss either alternative as being completely without merit.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1206224' date='Mar 1 2007, 10:39 AM']It's not completely unreasonable to believe in God, nor is it completely unreasonable to disbelieve in God. People can argue about what's "most" reasonable, or which is the wisest choice between two relatively reasonble alternatives, but it's just plain stupid and intellectually dishonest to dismiss either alternative as being completely without merit.[/quote]
It's completely unreasonable to be an atheist. Common sense says that God exists.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1206229' date='Mar 1 2007, 10:56 AM']It's completely unreasonable to be an atheist. Common sense says that God exists.[/quote]
Case in point.

Poor Tommy A. Wasted all that time.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

My view, for what it's worth:
There are atheistic arguments, but I said they do not hold ground because I do not find them convincing. I see no need to argue from design and orderliness etc, when the fact that anything exists at all is sufficient. I really do think it is unreasonable to believe that some ancient mass of energy and matter just existed and blew up, setting out a chain of reactions which has led to the present state of the universe.

Edited March 1, 2007 by thedude

[prose]

[quote]There are atheistic arguments, but I said they do not hold ground because I do not find them convincing. I see no need to argue from design and orderliness etc, when the fact that anything exists at all is sufficient.[/quote]

That is exactly what I think. In order for an argument to hold ground, it needs to make sense, be logical, and be difficult to refute. I find that such an argument does not exist for atheism.

[Anomaly]

People who believed our solar system revolved around the Earth pretty much had the same mindset. It didn't make sense to consider the earth is just a speck, hurtling at great speed while revolving around a star. To fail to question the logical and reasonable belief that the Earth is the center of the Universe and solar system was to fail to explore the greater majestey and glory of God's creation.

[prose]

You can explore atheist arguments without considering them reasonable.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='prose' post='1206315' date='Mar 1 2007, 02:39 PM']You can explore atheist arguments without considering them reasonable.[/quote]
And thus we begin condenscending and arrogant lecture while avoiding mutual respect and intelligent discourse.

Thomas Aquanis, Aristotle, and other philosophers would certainly disagree with your method of exploration and discourse.

Edited March 1, 2007 by Anomaly

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The atheistic arguments I have seen that are not just bias against religion (for example: bringing up 9/11 and declaring religion is evil and must be rejected), miss the big picture. You can argue cause and effect and everything else all you want - without God, matter and energy or whatever was just "here." Atheism cannot answer the question as to why there is existence. There must be a reason there is something rather than nothing - God, the Creator.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

My analogy:
The present condition of existence is a house. Atheists and theists can argue over who/what (or whether it was necessary) did the building, but atheism falls short in telling us where the materials to build the house came from in the first place.

[FullTruth]

StThomasMore, can I ask you a question?

Why do you post questions like this on Phatmass? Are you unsure of your faith? Do you need people to tell you what you need to think, feel, believe and behave?

God does recommed that we should seek out believers, because there is safety with multiple counsellors, but at the same time, you shouldn't be going out asking these questions all the time, unless it is some sort of class lesson. If it is, than forget what I have just said. I am only making an assumption.

You are to study to show yourself approved. You go out and keep on learning and desiring to know more of God's word and God's truth. Sometimes it is important to come to ask questions of believers for clarification, but God expects us to do that ourselves.

[Anomaly]

My opinion regarding most posters here.
They are merely seeking validation of their opinion or belief via consensus. They are too afraid to fear they may be wrong because they lack the intellectual honesty to work their own way back and validate their belief themselves.

It's easier to never doubt God's existence and not put in the time or effort to pray, philosophize, and reason your way back to believing in God.

You it's sad when you replace "knowing God" with "knowing there is a God".

Not to say they're neccessarily wrong. The Father loves the Faithful Son just as much as He loves the Prodigal Son.

[got2luvjc]

I know God exitsts

my human biology class reaffirms the existance of God everyday. The human body is so complex and so perfect in the way it runs, it can't possibly be a form of just a bunch of cells finding each other saying "hey, let's make a person"

[Justified Saint]

Luckily there is the intervening wisdom of Anomaly to set everyone aright...

Anyway, I do tend to believe that traditional theistic proofs are pretty bad, to put it mildly. Philosophical theism usually involves question begging or just plain inconsistencies. The best atheistic arguments are simply those that point out the weaknesses of these proofs. If theism is so reasonable beyond any doubt, as someone else has already pointed out, then we wouldn't have any atheists. But that shouldn't be all that suprising since faith in God ought to rest on...faith. I would be a little worried if someone ever became a believer solely over reading a philosophical proof for theism.

[prose]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1206610' date='Mar 1 2007, 08:14 PM']My opinion regarding most posters here.
They are merely seeking validation of their opinion or belief via consensus. They are too afraid to fear they may be wrong because they lack the intellectual honesty to work their own way back and validate their belief themselves.

It's easier to never doubt God's existence and not put in the time or effort to pray, philosophize, and reason your way back to believing in God.[/quote]

Um. I think that through prayer, philosophizing, and reasoning, one comes to Christ as the Truth.

I think that being sure of the Truth has nothing to do with lacking intellectual honesty. In fact, I think that faith, without any intellectual backing is often weak.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1206710' date='Mar 2 2007, 12:17 AM']Luckily there is the intervening wisdom of Anomaly to set everyone aright...

Anyway, I do tend to believe that traditional theistic proofs are pretty bad, to put it mildly. Philosophical theism usually involves question begging or just plain inconsistencies. The best atheistic arguments are simply those that point out the weaknesses of these proofs. If theism is so reasonable beyond any doubt, as someone else has already pointed out, then we wouldn't have any atheists. But that shouldn't be all that suprising since faith in God ought to rest on...faith. I would be a little worried if someone ever became a believer solely over reading a philosophical proof for theism.[/quote]I think you're being sarcastic?

I agree whole heartedly with your statement: "But that shouldn't be all that suprising since faith in God ought to rest on...faith."

I contend we always have a choice. Some choices are more logical, more reasonable, or more 'good'. Every human is graced with evidence for God, as well as doubts of His existence. God has chosen to not provide overwhelming evidence that we cannot chose to ignore Him. Scripture tells you that we would die if we saw the face of God as imperfect humans. You can read that as if we were faced with completely irrefutable evidence of God, we probably would loose the ability to come to know God via our own Free Will. Even as Jesus walked the earth, he did not choose to command all the World and leave no doubts. Yes, Jesus gave evidence and proof, but not always irrefutable. The Apostles weren't idiots, and after 3 years with Jesus, didn't really grasp who Jesus is.

Bottom line. God always leaves ample room for each and everyone of us to freely answer the same question Jesus posed to Pilate. "Who do YOU say I am?"