What Do You Put Your Faith In

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1204718' date='Feb 26 2007, 12:48 AM']I believe the legal sacrifice is how we who would be otherwise imperfect are made perfect. We are covered by the snow.
[color="#FF0000"]Jesus Sacrifice opened the gates of heaven. By our baptism which remits original sin, we are again in a relationship with God. If we sin after Baptism, our relationship is damaged or severed [depending on the sin], until we repent and are forgiven. Our Baptism justifies us to God, and unless we die immediately after in a state of grace, it cannot be itself save us. We are not covered by Baptism or repentence- we are actually cleaned, so sins are wiped away. But like the little kid who breaks someting in anger, God can forgive us but consequences are marked on our soul. THe marks are imperfections that must be removed before we can enter heaven. Purgatory is the cleansing fire that removes the imperfections.[/color]

But looking back at some older posts, I forgot an important point that's a credit for you. Correct me if I am mistaken. I haven't gotten a very clear explanation of what purgatory is in this thread or basic internet sites. The older posts said that purgatory is where you are cleansed from temporal sins. By what Cmom says, this is automatic with no effort on their part.
[color="#FF0000"]Once we are dead, we can make no more effort on our part. If we make it to Purgatory [as opposed t going to hell] Gods cleanising fire readies us for heaven by removing the imperfections left by the sins committed in life. [/color]

The key that's to your credit if true is that the sins that you have remaining at your death are forgiven, probably at your death.
[color="#FF0000"]Nope. We need to be in a state of grace and have our sins forgiven BEFORE we die.[/color]

There's debate as to when and how. But it's not in purgatory that they are forgiven. If that is the case, there's no point where you have to cooperte. Then Jesus' sacrafice is being applied to forgive them, which I would agree with in that sense. I might differ as to how it's done, but it's a close. I might say I even like your idea better because it does ensure you are clean on the inside. Then again, I know a lot of christians talk about glorification at death, which seems a lot like purgatory except the forgiveness is at a different time. If you got only nine out of ten points, you live eternity in heaven with nine points and the tenth is not for you. This sounds a lot like purgatory possibly.

But before I get too ahead of myself, I think someone should verify if my notions of purgatory are correct.

[color="#FF0000"]Sorry if its not quite coherent its past my bed time[/color][/quote]

[123]

I know that your comments have been talk about but, if I may take a different path to explain your dialouge.

[quote]I feel sorry you think faith and works are inextricably linked for salvation. Yes they are inextricably linked in that you must progress if you have faith. But you will never gain perfection, but doesn't mean you don't have faith. We are inherently sinful. Do you really believe the saints who lived in the Catholic Churh never sinned at the end of their life?[/quote][b]Galatians 6:7-9: 7[/b] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

In this debate you could take the middle path to say, that you may not feel that faith and works are inextricably linked for salvation. But, also say that just faith singular (Sola Fide) cannot save you also!

Hilariously, just thinking about a work is in and of itself, a work! Did not Christ tell to not even imagine killing in our minds for we would be guilty for breaking the commands that Moses brought down? Christ spiritualized the commands of [b]works[/b] that was established in Exodous. So now the works are even important in our minds!

[b]Rev. 22-11-14[/b]. "11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous,[b] let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.[/b] 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

[b]James 2:14-26 - 14[/b] [b]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead being alone.[/b] 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[quote]Do you really believe the saints who lived in the Catholic Churh never sinned at the end of their life?[/quote]

I'm afraid that I do not know anyone here that prides themselves on a museum of sinless saints. The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum of saints.

The saint is consider to be a holy one because he/she was sinful like us but, didn't as often fail in the face of tempation. We know because we still have histories of their lives that speak numerously of their achievements.

See Matthew 16:18 for Church Authority on Beatification of Saints.

Remember, Saint does not mean [i] non-sinner[/i] it means holy one. We are all saints and still we are sinners. We just respect our spiritual peers that have gone on before us.

Edited February 26, 2007 by GloriaIesusChristi

[jesussaves]

When I said it seems somewhat valid the idea of purgatory I was saying so because you don't have to cooperate anymore. If you don't have to cooperate, it becomes more realistic that you could have the sacrafice applied to you legally. Then the bad parts of you are cut off, if it's like what some protestants believe. That way all you have left are clean parts and you are clean outside and inside.

Then as Cmom says, you don't do anything anymore when you die to earn or anything. You are simply made clean. Right?

[quote]The key that's to your credit if true is that the sins that you have remaining at your death are forgiven, probably at your death.
Nope. We need to be in a state of grace and have our sins forgiven BEFORE we die.[/quote]
As raphael said, most do not reach perfection during this life. And as common sense dictates, most people have venial sins on them even when they die. An unofficial but taught idea in Catholic circles, to my understanding, is that at death, or right before death, God forgives these sins that you still have.

[123]

[quote]An unofficial but taught idea in Catholic circles, to my understanding, is that at death, or right before death, God forgives these sins that you still have.[/quote]

Right, but God can only forgive you if you confess. If God can forgive me of all my sins before I die without my consent, I could be the nasty Christian ever and that is obviously what God wants. So, your close but, remember, we may be forgiven, but forgiveness does not replace discipline or purging fire that cleans of the dirt of sin.

[u]Summary[/u]

-God can only forgive is you confess and do penance.[b] unless in severe cases of illness and suffering then the sins are forgiven in the last rites.[/b] But is you are able, God requires that you apoligze for your disobedience and then forgivness is given and never remembered again. (1 John 1:9)

-Just because we say, "Gee, sorry Jesus." doesnt mean we escape discipline from God. Just like disobeying mom and dad. We say sorry to them, but still we get disicplined.

The cookie jar analogie is good for this discussion.

Edited February 26, 2007 by GloriaIesusChristi

[prose]

No one is forgiven in purgatory!! Only purified.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='GloriaIesusChristi' post='1204884' date='Feb 26 2007, 12:16 PM']The cookie jar analogie is good for this discussion.[/quote]
Who me? Couldn't be! Prose stole the cookie from the cookie jar!

[jesussaves]

So if you take the glorification principle from a lot of christians. and you take purgatory from the Catholic Church, it seems the only place there's disagreement is when the sins are forgiven. With protestants they are all forgiven at a certain point of conversion. With Catholics, most are forgiven for their own sake as you have no longer done them, but there still remains at the end of your life a legal forgiveness. You are legally forgiven, the snow is covering your dung, of your venial sins at your death.
The dispute seems actually petty. I suppose I could even see liking the Catholic position better, as it doesn't forgive all sins just because, it forgives a lesser amount of sins legally at your death.

Note then that Catholics are not immune from the legal snow dung argument.

[jesussaves]

So it seems my only real contention is with the idea of a mortal sin. I'm sure there's a liberal Catholic way of understanding it though that doesn't necessarily conflict with my ideas, which is odd, because all these things depend on teachings that are not doctrine but can be contstrued to fit my brand of Christianity.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1205014' date='Feb 26 2007, 08:57 PM']Note then that Catholics are not immune from the legal snow dung argument.[/quote]Just out of curiousity, do you consider that the "dung pile"
metaphor would apply to Adam and Eve before the Fall?

[jesussaves]

nope. that was before the crucifiction.
you shouldn't be asking only me, apparently catholics believe it too in a different way.

[Brother Adam]

The total depravity of Calvinism and Martin Luther's dung analogy are both at odds with Catholic theology. Catholics believe that God made man "in His image" and that man is "good" as God has deemed man. Martin Luther sees man as naturally evil (dung) which cannot be cleaned even by baptism (the action or grace of God). The most God can do in Lutheran theology is cover man with Christ while man remains in his filth. This is contra Paul who states explicitly that it is no longer I who lives but "Christ who liveth in me." After man's cooperation with God, by the act of God and the grace of God, in baptism man is completely cleansed of all sin, original and actual, and stands, even for a moment, as a completely holy person because he is in Christ. Due to concupiscence man may fall into sin after his baptism, both mortal and venial, so in he once again, like the prodigal son, must return to his Father, having forsaken his inheritance (eternal life). While there are many similarities between Catholicism and Protestantism (as Protestantism is derived from Catholicism) we must remember that both take on a dramatically different world view. The Catechism of the Catholic Church #1949 - 2029 explain very clearly and briefly what Catholics believe about salvation. You can read it online here: [url="http://www.catecheticsonline.com/Catechism-Catholic3.php"]http://www.catecheticsonline.com/Catechism-Catholic3.php[/url]

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1205080' date='Feb 26 2007, 11:06 PM']nope. that was before the crucifiction.
you shouldn't be asking only me, apparently catholics believe it too in a different way.[/quote]I'm confused, are you saying that the metaphor to dung hills (and total depravity, etc) only applies to those who lived after the Crucifixion of Our Lord?

PS: the correct spelling is "Crucifixion."

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1205014' date='Feb 26 2007, 08:57 PM']Note then that Catholics are not immune from the legal snow dung argument.[/quote]
Individuals may falsely believe in it, but the Church clearly teaches against it.

One thing I never liked about the idea of imputed righteousness is that it's sort of like divine book-cooking. Man isn't actually worthy of heaven, so God just looks at Jesus and decides to consider man worthy in light of Jesus. How is it that that doesn't make God out to be a liar? Can God consider evil to be good? No, of course not...man must actually be made worthy of heaven, inside and out.

[jesussaves]

I note your disapproval of the legal theory. But the legal theory, or at least a variation of it, seems to be the only way to rectify in Catholic theology the fact most persons die with venial sins on their soul. I've been told here, in fact I think Raphael told me this, that at or just before death, an unofficial teaching is that God forgives your venial sins. That would seem to be a legal forgiveness, no? He doesn't forgive them in purgatory through inward change, he only forgives temporal aspects of sin. A person can't be expected to repent right before death, as suggested by the one poster above, because hardly any would have that chance, and even if they did, that their repentence is true, that they'd never sin again, is very low: and if you forgave someone who was sorry but prone to sin whenthey happened to die, then it's like they just got lucky.
So you tell me... what becomes of your venial sins that you are living in when you die?

[cmotherofpirl]

So if you take the glorification principle from a lot of christians. and you take purgatory from the Catholic Church, it seems the only place there's disagreement is when the sins are forgiven. With protestants they are all forgiven at a certain point of conversion.

[color="#FF0000"] Baptism removes the stain of original sin if you are a baby. If you are an adult, it removes that plus any other sins you have committed in your lifetime. Baptism justifies you and you become a member of the Body of Christ.
However any mortal sin you commit after that must be repented, confessed and absolved or you go to hell. All mortal sins must be absolved BEFORE death to have a chance of heaven.
I have never understood how protestants think their sins are forgiven at any point. Just say God forgive me? They have no assurance but some vague feeling? I would not not bet my eternity on feeling.[/color]


With Catholics, most are forgiven for their own sake as you have no longer done them, but there still remains at the end of your life a legal forgiveness. You are legally forgiven, the snow is covering your dung, of your venial sins at your death.

[color="#FF0000"]A sin is not forgiven just because you stop doing it, it is forgiven if you repent, confess and are absolved for it. Otherwise it remains on your soul. There is no "legal" forgiveness at the end of your life. If you have small imperfections they are cleansed in the fires of purgatory. If you have mortal sin, you go to hell. There is no covering, that is a foreign non-christian concept. Either you are WASHED in the blood of the Lamb by absolution or you go to hell. In no way are your sins hidden by pretending they are not there. You do not not put clean clothes on a dirty body, you take a bath.[/color]


The dispute seems actually petty. I suppose I could even see liking the Catholic position better, as it doesn't forgive all sins just because, it forgives a lesser amount of sins legally at your death.

[color="#FF0000"]We don't have lessser sins forgiven just because we are dying.THeir is no get out of hell card at the end.[/color]

Note then that Catholics are not immune from the legal snow dung argument.

[color="#FF0000"]THis argument is not christian so it doesn't even matter[/color]

[jesussaves]

So that's a way of looking at it I haven't considered. You say the sins are not forgiven when you die, you are simply made pure in purgatory such that you don't need the forgiveness before you die. This goes against the idea that you have to be forgiven before you die: I take that notion for granted and will need to think about it whether an alternative is feasible. I don't have time to think about it or read the bible but I will get back to you.

So does God force you to be good? If he doesn't I go back to my reservation that man could never comply become perfect, even if God's grace.
Or maybe in purgatory the bad parts of you are "cut off" such that what's left is perfect?

Edited February 27, 2007 by jesussaves

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1205303' date='Feb 27 2007, 12:03 PM']So that's a way of looking at it I haven't considered. You say the sins are not forgiven when you die, you are simply made pure in purgatory such that you don't need the forgiveness before you die.

[color="#FF0000"]If you are in a state of grace when you die you go to heaven.
This means you have been to confession, confessed your sins, been absolved and done penance.
If you have small imperfections on your soul - the stains of sin forgiven, you go to purgatory.
If you have unforgiven mortal sin on your soul you go to hell.[/color]

This goes against the idea that you have to be forgiven before you die: I take that notion for granted and will need to think about it whether an alternative is feasible. I don't have time to think about it or read the bible but I will get back to you.

[color="#FF0000"]Why do you take that notion for granted, the Bible doesn't stay all is forgiven at the end of your life.[/color]

So does God force you to be good? If he doesn't I go back to my reservation that man could never comply become perfect, even if God's grace.
Or maybe in purgatory the bad parts of you are "cut off" such that what's left is perfect?

[color="#FF0000"]God has given us free will, He doesn 't force anything, He simply asks. If you have mortal sin on your soul at death, purgatory is not an option. Death cuts off the choices, only judgement remains.[/color][/quote]

[jesussaves]

You didn't address what happens to venial sins. At least most have venial sins when they die.
You said God cleans small things that are already forgiven. How did the venial sins get forgiven in the first place?

[Jaime]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1205433' date='Feb 27 2007, 04:28 PM']You didn't address what happens to venial sins. At least most have venial sins when they die.
You said God cleans small things that are already forgiven. How did the venial sins get forgiven in the first place?[/quote]

Going to mass forgives venial sins

[jesussaves]

But you aren't at mass just before you die, almost always. People commit venial sins everyday right?

I suppose you could argue your intention to go to Mass forgives the sins. But, you also have intention to commit venial sins again

It does seem somewhat legal/technical, if not a legal theory per se, to say by doing one thing you're forgiven of another.

Edited February 27, 2007 by jesussaves