Purgatory

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

I am in a debate with a Protestant on another board about the existence of Purgatory. If any of you could give me some good scriptural passages, your own defense, or a good Catholic resource I would be eternally greatful

Thankyou!

God bless and Mary keep you,

Chris

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Vulgata Clementina; Machabæorum II: Caput XII']43 Et facta collatióne, duódecim míllia drachmas argénti misit Jerosólymam offérri pro peccátis mortuórum sacrifícium, bene et religióse de resurrectióne cógitans
44 (nísi enim eos qui cecíderant resurrectúros speráret, supérfluum viderétur et vanum oráre pro mórtuis),
45 et quia considerábat quod hi qui cum pietáte dormitiónem accéperant, óptimam habérent repósitam grátiam.
46 Sancta ergo et salúbris est cogitátio pro defúnctis exoráre, ut a peccátis solvántur.[/quote]

[quote name='Vulgata Clementina; ad Corinthios I: Caput III']11 Fundaméntum enim áliud nemo potest pónere præter id quod pósitum est, quod est Christus Jesus.
12 Si quis autem superædíficat super fundaméntum hoc, aurum, argéntum, lápides pretiósos, ligna, fÅ“num, stípulam,
13 uniuscujúsque opus maniféstum erit : dies enim Dómini declarábit, quia in igne revelábitur : et uniuscujúsque opus quale sit, ignis probábit.
14 Si cujus opus mánserit quod superædificávit, mercédem accípiet.
15 Si cujus opus árserit, detriméntum patiétur : ipse autem salvus erit, sic tamen quasi per ignem.[/quote]

Edited March 4, 2007 by StThomasMore

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

The verse froms St. Paul helps. Thankyou.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][quote][b]Matthew 5:25-26[/b]
"Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Luke 12:58-59[/b]
"And when thou goest with thy adversary to the prince, whilst thou art in the way, endeavour to be delivered from him: lest perhaps he draw thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the exacter, and the exacter cast thee into prison. I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the very last mite."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49012.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49012.htm[/url][/quote][b]1 Peter 5:8[/b]
"Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/67005.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/67005.htm[/url]

[b]Apocalypse 12:10[/b]
"And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73012.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73012.htm[/url]

[b]Matthew 5:48[/b]
"Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm[/url][/quote]In theses verses we find our Blessed Lord saying we should be at peace with our adversary, who ultimately who are fallen angels, this peace ought not be in any sense of the word trusting those who oppose faith. Therefore this is referring to the idea that they should not be holding anything against us for upon our Judgment they will be accusing us of our sins that we see in the Apocalypse of Saint John the Apostle. We see that this adversary most likely is the devil for in 1 Peter we find that he is called our adversary. So this two scripture verse must be referring to after death, therefore this place of prison that we are to be kept until every last penny (farthing or mite) is paid. This is in essence Purgatory being a state of detainment and punishment for theses souls are not eternally held but only temporally held (which Hell there is no end).[quote][b]Matthew 12:32[/b]
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47012.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47012.htm[/url][/quote]This verse is the more common in Catholic Apologetics since in this verse our Blessed Lord says that whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit (Final Despair of Mercy) will not be forgiven neither in this world OR THE WORLD TO COME. This world to come is referring to the afterlife of which if our Blessed Lord is making the point to mention the world to come doesn’t that make us wonder if any other sins can be forgiven, therefore this suggests that some sins can still be forgiven in the world to come which the Catholic Church knows as Venial Sins. ([i]Another Apologetic Topic All Together[/i])[quote][b]Luke 12:47-48[/b]
"And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49012.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49012.htm[/url][/quote]This verse in context is speaking not of the current time but the time that our Blessed Lord calls us (death). For before this He is speaking about being prepared for we do not know when His return will be. So then it starts to speak about those servants who knew the will of their Lord would be beaten more than those knew not. This punishment has an end while in eternal damnation there is no end to punishment, thus it is very likely that in this verse it is referring to Purgatory for there are punishments given for sin that are not eternal that are after this life.[quote][b]1 Corinthians 15:29-30[/b]
"Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? Why are they then baptized for them? Why also are we in danger every hour?"
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53015.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53015.htm[/url][/quote]Saint Paul the Apostle is referring to rituals and prayers done on the behalf of the dead, why do the Christians do this if they believe that upon death one is eternally damned or eternally saved? This suggests that there is a place of temporal punishment or holding that they can assist them by their prayers and works.[quote][b]Hebrews 12:23[/b]
"And to the church of the firstborn, who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect"
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/65012.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/65012.htm[/url][/quote]Here Saint Paul the Apostle speaks of souls being made perfect after refering to those "written in the heavens." Suggesting a state of purging.[quote][b]1 Peter 3:19-20[/b]
"In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/67003.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/67003.htm[/url][/quote]Saint Peter the Apostle says that our Blessed Lord preaches to those souls who are in prison, linking back to the start of this post. The souls are being preached to that they may be saved for if we see here the souls there are waiting for Him to come for them from the day of Noe. This means that theses people are dead so if a soul is eternally dammed or eternally saved why does He now preachy to them, further why does it make mention of several souls who were saved by water (Baptism) who were still waiting? This place while not Purgatory exactly rather Limbo it suggests a place of detainment and a place of correction, otherwise our Lord would not have to preach to them.[quote][b]1 Peter 4:6-7[/b]
"For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit. But the end of all is at hand. Be prudent therefore, and watch in prayers."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/67004.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/67004.htm[/url][/quote]Saint Peter the Apostle says again that the Gospel Message was preached to the dead (why preach to people who are eternally dammed or saved) but then he says this preaching is for their judgment showing that their judgment is lessened or somehow satisfied by their preaching. Then he instructs the faithful to watch in prayer reflecting the Catholic practice to pray for the dead so they may be freed from Purgatory.[quote][b]Apocalypse 21:4[/b]
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73021.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73021.htm[/url][/quote]Here Saint John the Apostle writes of the end of time (for there is no more death and former things have passed away) but there is no more sorrow and the tears are whipped away. At the end of time the souls in Heaven will not need to be consoled and the souls in Damnation will not have it, for this is speaking of the souls in Purgatory whom will be freed to everlasting life.

[b]I really hope this helps some...[/b]

[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html[/url] (good quotes)

[MIKolbe]

1 Cor 3:11-15
11
for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
12
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13
the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
14
If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15
But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.




i was taught that our works are a corollary what we build on the foundation. They can be either (gold, silver, or precious stones) or (wood, hay, or stray).

"for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. "

Gold, silver, and precious stones are seen as material that will not 'burn up', as wood, hay, or straw do.

If the works stands after the test of fire (gold, silver, jems), cool deal.. if not, "he will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

"BUT ONLY" is the greek word [i]houtos[/i] meaning in the same manner. So in the same manner the persons works were burned up, so will he, though he will be saved.

Maybe someone smarter than me can ellaborate more eloquently than i can. But this is the jist of it as i remember, and I think i remember eithe Augustine or Jerome used this passage to prove Purgatory.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1208026' date='Mar 4 2007, 06:01 PM']1 Cor 3:11-15
11
for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
12
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13
the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
14
If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15
But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
i was taught that our works are a corollary what we build on the foundation. They can be either (gold, silver, or precious stones) or (wood, hay, or stray).

"for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. "

Gold, silver, and precious stones are seen as material that will not 'burn up', as wood, hay, or straw do.

If the works stands after the test of fire (gold, silver, jems), cool deal.. if not, "he will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

"BUT ONLY" is the greek word [i]houtos[/i] meaning in the same manner. So in the same manner the persons works were burned up, so will he, though he will be saved.

Maybe someone smarter than me can ellaborate more eloquently than i can. But this is the jist of it as i remember, and I think i remember eithe Augustine or Jerome used this passage to prove Purgatory.[/quote]

I had already posted the same passage...

[N/A Gone]

Why look any farther than the best blog on catholic apologetics?

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-1.html#links"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...rt-1.html#links[/url]

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-2.html#links"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...rt-2.html#links[/url]

Edited March 5, 2007 by Revprodeji

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1208280' date='Mar 4 2007, 08:47 PM']I had already posted the same passage...[/quote]
figures..

one of the few things i know.. the smart guy already posted it.

[N/A Gone]

dude, debate forum, look at my huge post

[thessalonian]

My favorite arguement that has won some over is the question of sanctification which is really what purgatory is about. They believe in imputed righteousness (not really righteous) and so they really have a bigger need for purgatory than us.

They believe in sanctification. But what happens if sanctification is not completed. let's say billy graham, who has been enduring sanctification for years, gets on a bus. A guy sits down next to him, pot head, lives with a woman, alcoholic. Well Billy converts the guy, the bus goes off a cliff and they die.

Now imputed righteousness says the guy is not really righteous but snow covered dung. Billy may not even be all the way sanctified. Rev 19 tells us NOTHING unclean shall enter. So something has to give between the death of this guy and heaven. He's gotta get truly righteous.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1208300' date='Mar 4 2007, 11:58 PM']Why look any farther than the best blog on catholic apologetics?

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-1.html#links"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...rt-1.html#links[/url]

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-2.html#links"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...rt-2.html#links[/url][/quote]
those links are slightly off. here are the correct ones:

Defense of Purgatory: Part 1
[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-1.html"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...ory-part-1.html[/url]

Defense of Purgatory: Part 2
[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-2.html"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...ory-part-2.html[/url]

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

This has all been of great help thank you.

[rkwright]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1208340' date='Mar 4 2007, 11:42 PM']figures..

one of the few things i know.. the smart guy already posted it.

[/quote]

Don't worry, he posted the latin version of it. And for the 90% of people who don't speak or read latin your post was helpful.

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

Yeah, I had to get those verses from here: www.drbo.org

Edited March 7, 2007 by Knight of the Holy Rosary

[N/A Gone]

Mr. More, do you actually speak/read latin or did u just copy it? Thats pretty cool if you speak it at your age