Catholic Flowchart Vs. Christian Flowchart

[Groo the Wanderer]

Problem is that Budgie is incapable of comprehending scripture as a cohesive whole. To get it it 'fit' with her Budgiology, she has to take one verse at a time, genereally WAY out of context. Also has to ignore the meaning of whole sections (John 6) and refuse to acknowledge some of theme as vaild.

Until she learns to read the whole word of God, she will refuse to accept it.

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1209836' date='Mar 7 2007, 01:33 PM']Thes, that was awesome.

Budge, My flow chart would say if I ate an oreo cookie I would look like Brad Pitt. I can rest assure that I will look like brad pitt if I eat my cookie. Or maybe even just accepting the idea that I need the cookie, or wait, maybe just accepting that I wanna look like brad pitt can make me look like brad pitt. Why would I ever have to do anything at all? And since it is just an intellectual thing I guess I need no change, and I need never change the decision.

**look like Brad PItt, look like BRad Pitt**

did it work, or do I still look like Nick Lachey?[/quote]


[quote name='Budge' post='1209907' date='Mar 7 2007, 03:37 PM']None of that made any sense... [/quote]

Makes perfect sense. I explained how simple is not always correct, and I just discussed the analogy further

oh, I do look like Nick Lachey, makes me mad but the wife and her friends love it.

[Fishmaker]

[img]http://i16.tinypic.com/2h7fay8.gif[/img]

Can I point out something very obvious?

According you your chart, there is a continual circle of being saved... And grace can flow all the way to unsaved. It doesn't make any sense at all.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1209948' date='Mar 7 2007, 05:24 PM']This is why

2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Why would God make the gospel too complicated for most of the world to understand?

Considering the different levels of education, literacy and more?

God made the true gospel simple and direct for a reason.

[img]http://i18.tinypic.com/2iktcft.jpg[/img]

This means turn to Christ ALONE {not to sacraments, pope, purgatory etc}[/quote]


To be saved, you must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31), but the Sacred Scriptures show other things you must also do to be saved.

You must endure to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.

You must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.

You must be baptized with water. Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5 Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21.

You must be a member in God's true church. Acts 2:47.

You must confess your sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9

You must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21

You must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.

You must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16, I Corinthians 11:23-29

[Socrates]

I'll bet the bank that "Catholic flowchart" didn't come from any actual Catholic source, but was probably pasted from some anti-Catholic website.

Posting these silly charts proves absolutely nothing about Biblical truth.

And it's getting quite tiresome to be continually lectured by Budge on what the Catholic Church "really teaches." If you want to know what the Church really teaches, read the Catechism, don't go to some anti-Catholic website. Everyday, Budge reveals more of her ignorance.

And aren't flow-charts unBiblical practices??

Edited March 8, 2007 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1210017' date='Mar 7 2007, 08:21 PM']To be saved, you must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31), but the Sacred Scriptures show other things you must also do to be saved.

You must endure to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.

You must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.

You must be baptized with water. Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5 Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21.

You must be a member in God's true church. Acts 2:47.

You must confess your sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9

You must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21

You must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.

You must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16, I Corinthians 11:23-29[/quote]
Apparently, these Scripture verses are too complicated for Budge to handle. Budge wants a bumpersticker, not a Bible.

[Apotheoun]

[img]http://i16.tinypic.com/2h7fay8.gif[/img]
The key point in Budge's soteriological chart is that human free choice determines whether or not a man is saved. In other words, if a man chooses to accept grace he is saved, but if he chooses to reject grace he is damned. Thus, according to Budge's chart each man saves himself, and that is what makes the chart so very interesting.

[Jaime]

See now if this was in PowerPoint, well you might convince me then.

But a chart?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1210056' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:10 PM'][img]http://i16.tinypic.com/2h7fay8.gif[/img]
The key point in Budge's soteriological chart is that human free choice determines whether or not a man is saved. In other words, if a man chooses to accept grace he is saved, but if he chooses to reject grace he is damned. Thus, according to Budge's chart each man saves himself, and that is what makes the chart so very interesting.[/quote]It's also strange that in Budgianity, all mankind is born saved (i.e. no Original Sin), and a person can only un-save himself or herself. I wonder if Budge realizes that this is closer to Islamic teachings than Christian soteriology.

[Azriel]

I draw process models for a living .... I could have done a much better job.

[Mateo el Feo]

Should we all get together and write up a "salvation use-case", and model salvation in UML?

[N/A Gone]

ironically budge. your model isnt "christian" heck, it isnt even protestant, heck, it isnt even evangelical. I was taught a different model from an academic evangelical bible college.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Azriel' post='1210067' date='Mar 7 2007, 08:20 PM']I draw process models for a living .... I could have done a much better job. [/quote]


You do everything better hon!

[Budge]

Im not a computer person, just so you all know..



[quote]According you your chart, there is a continual circle of being saved... And grace can flow all the way to unsaved. It doesn't make any sense at all.[/quote]well the YES points back to saved, and No means unsaved. I suppose they could have drawn that more clearly.


[quote]
You must endure to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.[/quote]

Sure....{Im with you there}

And with the HOly Spirit indwelling one will be given the strength to endure to the end.

[quote]You must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.[/quote]You dont have to suffer for your own salvation. Now one may suffer persecution and for the gospel, but one does not have to suffer to earn their salvation. Jesus completed the job.

[quote]You must be baptized with water. Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5 Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21.[/quote]

Baptism is a ordinance of salvation. That is what saves. The thief on the cross was never baptized. There is no "magic" in the water making you saved. It is a sign of your salvation.

[quote]You must be a member in God's true church. Acts 2:47.[/quote]If you are born again in Jesus Christ, that is automatic.

[quote]You must confess your sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9[/quote]

Sure, but to even become saved, you must repent. The Holy Spirit will call a Christian to continued repentance.

[quote]You must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21[/quote]Sure but one sin doesnt cast you out as the adopted member of God's family.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Holy Spirit chastises Christians who do sin. I know this myself.

Again you folks confuse justification with sanctification.
[quote]
You must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.[/quote]

And I do, peter as one of the apostles taught many good thins, such as telling Cornelius to stand, Silver and Gold I have none and much more.

[quote]
You must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16, I Corinthians 11:23-29
[/quote]I have done what Jesus CHrist mandated as that is symbolic, the eating of the WORD, becoming born again.

It is not literal cannabalism.


Does this verse mean someone is actually supposed to go eat paper and ink?

[b]Moreover He said to me, "Son of man, eat what you find; eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel." So I opened my mouth, and He caused me to eat that scroll (Ezekiel 3:1, 2).[/b]
[quote] Everyday, Budge reveals more of her ignorance.[/quote]

[Budge]

Socrates youre a smart guy, cant you do a better job of answering my posts then this?
[quote]
And aren't flow-charts unBiblical practices??[/quote]Dont know anything about that.

[quote]
Apparently, these Scripture verses are too complicated for Budge to handle. Budge wants a bumpersticker, not a Bible.[/quote]

Thats funny given Catholics repeat the same 5-7 verses over and over, Ill give Knight of Christ credit, thats the most scripture Ive seen a Catholic use, even in a copy and paste!
[quote]
The key point in Budge's soteriological chart is that human free choice determines whether or not a man is saved. In other words, if a man chooses to accept grace he is saved, but if he chooses to reject grace he is damned. Thus, according to Budge's chart each man saves himself, and that is what makes the chart so very interesting.[/quote]Well I dont want to get into arguments of predestination here, Im not a Calvinist but I do believe God calls His children to Him, as much as we can understand of that.

However you have to make the choice to be a good and devoted Catholic dont you? So how is that any different?

[quote]It's also strange that in Budgianity, all mankind is born saved (i.e. no Original Sin), and a person can only un-save himself or herself. I wonder if Budge realizes that this is closer to Islamic teachings than Christian soteriology.[/quote]

Where did I say or this chart that everyone is born saved?

[theculturewarrior]

Everybody wants an easy answer.

[N/A Gone]

budge..

How can you critique an answer? You rarely provide them back. It is a debate table, not a hit and run table

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1210102' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:51 PM']Thats funny given Catholics repeat the same 5-7 verses over and over, Ill give Knight of Christ credit, thats the most scripture Ive seen a Catholic use, even in a copy and paste![/quote]
You must not talk to many Catholics.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1210102' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:51 PM']Well I dont want to get into arguments of predestination here, Im not a Calvinist but I do believe God calls His children to Him, as much as we can understand of that.

However you have to make the choice to be a good and devoted Catholic dont you? So how is that any different?[/quote]It's different because the "simple chart" of Budgianity has no hint of the reality of Original Sin, and people (according to the chart) start out saved and are un-saved after.
[quote name='Budge' post='1210102' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:51 PM']Where did I say or this chart that everyone is born saved?[/quote]You sacrificed completeness at the altar of simplicity. If you think that some people do not receive the grace of faith, and are pre-destined to hell, then you are a Calvinist who doesn't make complete flow-charts.

Maybe we could help you create version 2.0 of the Budgianity flow chart.

[Azriel]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1210100' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:50 PM']You do everything better hon![/quote]

Wow. A fan! Could you email my boss???