Second Commandment

[theculturewarrior]

The numbering of the protestant ten commandments come from Origen, who was nearly anathematized by the Church because he taught that the acts of Christ in the Gospels were figurative literary symbols. He was definitely not an adherent to Sola Scriptura theology.

[theculturewarrior]

Is this another crucial historical fact that its intended audience finds irrelavent?

[theculturewarrior]

What I am saying is that if Origen came today and told you how to number the ten commandments, you would ignore him, because you would have branded him a heretic. Is that relevant?

[Maggyie]

I think the cat has the intended audience's tongue

I myself didn't know that about Origen. You learn something new every day, especially on Phatmass

[theculturewarrior]

Have I not explained it well?

[theculturewarrior]

Have I not explained it well?

[theculturewarrior]

Maybe I should clarify that they weren't numbered in ancient times.

[N/A Gone]

Clarify that Origen was a great church theologian. His students were idiots and some of his idea's got perverted (Arius is the best example) due to that he had a bad name, he also took Matt 19 a little too literal and casterated himself; something the church would not promote. but I would make the bold claim that our trinitarian development, our christological foundation. Heck, our soteriological foundation is all found within Origen. His exegesis was amazing as well. We owe much to the fact that he was a first-rate scholar, he developed alot of the theology behind martyrdon, he developed theology around creation and the fall, he practically invented biblical allegory and the idea of two levels of interpretation (literal and spiritual) He also was the foundational building block to our understanding of God as apophatic (unchangable/perfect)

The majority of the church fathers working within the realm of Origen. This includes, but is not limited to Alexander (and Arius of course) Eusebius who used Origen primarly to defeat Marcellus and his modalism. One could make the strong argument of the Capadocians being influenced by Origen, and Hilary was strongly influenced by Origen.

So I dont see how bashing Origen or his work will help your cause.

[theculturewarrior]

I admire what I've read of Origen too. I apologize if I have been unclear. My intention was not to bash him. It was to say that if protestants were familiar with him, they most likely would disagree with him on some important points, and might think twice about how we number the ten commandments.

[Brother Adam]

I also believe that Origen is found in the office of readings. He was condemned by a council and some of his stuff is wacky, but at the same time some of his theology is great and he defended succession against the Gnostics.

[theculturewarrior]

Do you think that protestants would agree with his approach to biblical interpretation (which you obviously know more about than me).

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' post='1210236' date='Mar 8 2007, 03:47 AM']I admire what I've read of Origen too. I apologize if I have been unclear. My intention was not to bash him. It was to say that if protestants were familiar with him, they most likely would disagree with him on some important points, and might think twice about how we number the ten commandments.[/quote]

What might also come as a shock to some of our brethren is that the Bible wasn't originally numbered by chapter and verse and could not be found at the corner Family Christian Bookstore.

[N/A Gone]

(Hi Adam,)

I actually own Origen's Letter from Africanus about the history of Susanna, Against Celsus, De Principlls, A letter to Gregory, letter to Gregory thaumaturgos, Commentary on John, and Matthew in digital form, if you want any of them I can copy-paste for you. From reading Origen I feel that the only heresy he truly commited was his drifting towards universalism and he kinda affirms reincarnation from that. But I feel that the things his students developed could be explained from Origen, he just never had the chance to. I also need to remember that this is the early church, he did not have the development of dogma that we do. He was on the cutting edge and I feel he is in heaven rewarded for his work. In a nutshell Origen understood that humanity lost its ability to properly love, and life on earth was a way for us to learn to love properly in order to love and focus on the divine. Christ taught that and became the perfect example on how to do that and exist in the divine. (of course, this is a nutshell)

You cant say "would protestant believe" there is little to no universal agreement on exegesis. As a matter of personal experience my hermenutics class bashed catholic interpretation like a good evangelical class. They felt that literal or allegorical interpretation perverted the gospel. Classic fundamentalism. take everything literal but the catholic parts (I got the teacher to admit they break all hermenutical rules in John 6)

Protestant, when quoting church fathers, do not need to affirm everything. They simply take what they see is good and ignore the rest.

Best example is augustine. Both Luther and Calvin, and then their followers of course, like to cite that Augustine was where they developed most of their relevent doctrine. Yet, anyone who has read or studied augustine knows the place he puts on free will (before the revisions of course) and that his soteriological model is completely dependant on the eucharist. But you dont hear protestantism acknowledge that.

I am not a militant by any means sir. I honor your position, I am sorry if I came across as challenging you. Protestants dont care what their traditions are. The majority of them have not opened Exodus anyway.

[Budge]

All of you put too much faith in these early deceivers..

The Apostles--the real ones, warned of VERY EARLY DECEIVERS. I believe all of Romes Early Church fathers are deceivers.

Instead of following the teachings of the REAL church fathers of Christianity the APOSTLES, Rome goes after its deceivers, failed experts, rejecters of Gods Word, and Alexandria stream {Babylonian lies promoting] charlatan's following after "vain philosophies".

Origen was more into Greek Philsophy more then Christianity. The man was prolific writing up to 2,000 books.

He Didnt believe in Old Testament miracles, didnt believe the Holy Spirit was eternal, and was one of the first to add the Apocrypha to scripture.

Origen also castrated himself. He brought in much error.

Eusebius Ive read some of his writings at Fordham University, when I used to do posts on Constantine. Basically a boot-licker for Constantine. His true "god" seemed to be Constantine rather then God. He promoted Origen's writings who lived about 100 years earlier.

[Brother Adam]

So... you've ignored the argument, the validity that Origen held heretical beliefs and castrated himself was already mentioned by others so you repeated it, and you're throwing around a highly loaded term that no one here is going to buy because we've actually studied the fathers and won't be "deceived" by budge.

And the answer to your question, is of course, that it is part and parcel of the first commandment. To make graven images would of course be to have a god before the one true God.

[theculturewarrior]

My point is that they wouldn't buy into his approach to biblical interpretation, and that this approach was a factor in his numbering of the Ten Commandments.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]Protestant, when quoting church fathers, do not need to affirm everything. They simply take what they see is good and ignore the rest.[/quote]

My point is that they wouldn't buy into his approach to biblical interpretation, and that this approach was a factor in his numbering of the Ten Commandments.

Edited March 8, 2007 by theculturewarrior

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Some of the fathers, like St. Ignatius of Antioch, knew Apostles personally. St. Ignatius of Antioch was a friend of St. John the Apostle and ordained bishop of Antioch by St. Peter the Apostle. I believe St. Polycarp also knew St. John. St. Irenaeus of Lyons was in turn a student of St. Polycarp. Only some egotistical agenda could have corrupted the teachings that come through these holy men. Remember that the Apostles did not write everything down - we hear much of the faith through those they passed it on to. This same tradition eventually selected the books that make up the Biblical canon. Tradition guided by the Holy Spirit came first - The Holy Bible is one of its fruits. God bless!

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Budge' post='1210286' date='Mar 8 2007, 05:37 AM']All of you put too much faith in these early deceivers..

The Apostles--the real ones, warned of VERY EARLY DECEIVERS. I believe all of Romes Early Church fathers are deceivers.

Instead of following the teachings of the REAL church fathers of Christianity the APOSTLES, Rome goes after its deceivers, failed experts, rejecters of Gods Word, and Alexandria stream {Babylonian lies promoting] charlatan's following after "vain philosophies".

Origen was more into Greek Philsophy more then Christianity. The man was prolific writing up to 2,000 books.

He Didnt believe in Old Testament miracles, didnt believe the Holy Spirit was eternal, and was one of the first to add the Apocrypha to scripture.

Origen also castrated himself. He brought in much error.

Eusebius Ive read some of his writings at Fordham University, when I used to do posts on Constantine. Basically a boot-licker for Constantine. His true "god" seemed to be Constantine rather then God. He promoted Origen's writings who lived about 100 years earlier.[/quote]

After all that you have just said here, how do you justify your signature?

[KnightofChrist]

Yes Budge how do you justify your falsehood? How do you justify an avatar that no basics in reality and in fact insults God and His commandments?

If it is to prove a point or not that point has been proven wrong, either way the avatar is a mockery and if it is not breaking the 2nd or 3rd commandment it is close.

Edited March 8, 2007 by KnightofChrist