The Primacy Of Peter

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1211108' date='Mar 9 2007, 08:23 PM']Yes papist is derogatory.[/quote] and "Schismatic Orthodox" isn't?

[N/A Gone]

Rez is right. Schismatic Greek Orthodox is wrong in the present eccesiological theology

[Mr.Cat]

[b]Eastern Orthodoxy[/b]: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Eastern_Orthodoxy.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Eastern_Orthodoxy.asp[/url]

Good article...

[bmb144]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1210961' date='Mar 10 2007, 07:51 AM']I find it amazing when ever Holy Scripture is used to prove Catholic teaching, there is nothing but silence from non-catholics... or anti-catholics whatever the case may be.
Bump[/quote]


Interesting, very interesting.

Ok, I'm going to throw out a challenge here. Those who read transmud know that I am in rebellion against the church, and this is one of my points of rebellion.

So would a couple of you like to put points here both in scriptural *and* historical context as to the primacy of Rome and why I should believe it.

I challenge you to prove it beyond doubt!

I'll be back in a few days to read what you say....
Belinda

[Anomaly]

Typical of you self-appointed 'pundints' of PhatMass. This is why non-Catholics don't post here.

How long did it take for this post to descend into a pointless argument of personal attacks?

A 'Catholic' took offense immediately. Then a 'Catholic' with the tact of an anvil complained about non-Catholics being overly sensitive.

Where is the willingness to engage on reasonable terms. I know I'm often sarcastic and I love biting humor. Mostly it's intentional, but not always. I was willing to engage in discussion, but that offer was soundly rebuked. Other non-Catholics offered to discuss, but were spurned as well and things degenerated into pettiness.

The only non-Catholics that can stand to be around here are the Budge's, LittleLes's etc. The common attitude of 'Catholics' here is that they're right so everyone else is all wrong. Read Dominus Iesus and try again with a different attitude.

You Catholics endow your Pope with the Charism of Infallibilty and Athority over all. That is beyond 'primacy'. The Pope may be a leader among the Bishops, but there is no support that the Pope can act independently and maintain the controls of the Divinity of the Church. In practical application, the only way the leaders of the Church can even attempt to act infallibly in defining or discerning questions of Fatih, is as a complete and corporate body of it's Apostolic leaders. Attempts to do otherwise, abaondons the controls of Tradition and you have fallible men behaving fallibly. The Pope is a Bishop and can only apply Doctrine as previously defined. A Man who attains the position of Pope while having concubines and illegitemate children is no more able to independently act infallibly on matters of Faith than I. They are probably even less able to act infallibly on matters of Moral than Budge. (I can't resist pointed humor. I'm a weak man.)

[Mr.Cat]

[b]Anomaly, you should read the first post here. In His Light, likewise... I know it is a lot of reading but if you look through and read it, I think you will be very surprised at the results.[/b]

But as a Catholic while I can propose source after sore even reason after reason for belief this is only “human faith.” The placing of trust in human understanding which for a time I suppose is sufficient as we find ourselves and human faith does reaffirm a greater faith, this greater faith is called “Divine Faith.” Divine Faith is we believe all that we do without any other reason that Almighty God has revealed it to us through His Church, the Catholic Church. Thus in Divine Faith, a superior form of faith, it is a simple and childlike belief following the “ground and pillar of the truth.”[quote][b]Creed of Pope Pius IV[/b]
"I acknowledge the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church as the mother and teacher of all churches; and I promise true obedience to the Bishop of Rome, successor to St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and Vicar of Jesus Christ."
[url="http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html"]http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Sy...ridentinae.html[/url][/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='In His Light' post='1211207' date='Mar 10 2007, 06:06 AM']Interesting, very interesting.

Ok, I'm going to throw out a challenge here. Those who read transmud know that I am in rebellion against the church, and this is one of my points of rebellion.

So would a couple of you like to put points here both in scriptural *and* historical context as to the primacy of Rome and why I should believe it.

I challenge you to prove it beyond doubt!

I'll be back in a few days to read what you say....
Belinda[/quote]
Here's a [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp"]list of articles from Catholic Answers regarding this topic[/url].

This is also a good article concerning papal primacy in response to Eastern Orthodox objections: [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9610eaw.asp"]PETER AND THE ORTHODOX: A REPRISE [/url]

Edited March 11, 2007 by Socrates

[thessalonian]

In his light,

For those who are open to truth the evidence is sufficient. For those who are not no evidence is enough.

I would be glad to post a whole book of information. But I suspect from the tone of your post the last half might apply to you. Show me otherwise. If you are truly interested and open I suggest to you "Jesus Peter and the Keys By Butler Dahlgren and Hess or Upon This Rock by Steve Ray. Either of those books provide overwhelming support for the primacy of rome for anyone to be convinced if they are open. Do you really want the truth?

blessings

Edited March 11, 2007 by thessalonian

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote]For those who are open to truth the evidence is sufficient. For those who are not no evidence is enough.[/quote] Don't you think that's a pretty closed minded and "I know it all" attitude? Maybe you're wrong but just dont know it? Nobody is perfect you know?

Even as an Orthodox, I dont confront those that dont agree with Orthodoxy with that attitude but allow a friendly dialog to take place. You'd be surprised, there's alot of people that dont believe in your faith that could teach you about your faith in ways that you're not aware of at this moment.

Reza

[jeffpugh]

I think I get what you mean Reza. I learn from my protestant friend all the time. He actually gives me confidence to dialogue with him now. It is a long process which takes co-operation on both sides.

[Mr.Cat]

I recall discussion with my Buddhist friend. At any rate we would talk about religious beliefs and one day we were talking about them not eating meat. He explained to me that they don’t eat meat because they believe all animals have souls (reincarnation) thus when you eat them you will cause their soul to haunt you. I smiled telling him, “Oh, you don’t have to worry. We import most of our meats: they will never find us here.”

We both had a good laugh and still do. Truthfully it was one of the most welcoming families I know of; I remember they would take me to school sometimes and they learned I didn’t always eat breakfast (in fact very rarely did I eat breakfast then) so they would bring food for me to eat. I always tried to explain that I was fine but they would insist.
Then when they gave me rides for so long we thanked them by giving them a gift, their culture dictates that when we give a gift, they give a gift back (into an endless cycle). So it became for a while the mission of my mother to give a gift without receiving one back.

I think learning about other beliefs is important but I think that understanding someone else’s belief and believing it are two different things. We should show Christian Charity in all things, even with those people who believe differently than ourselves. But this charity and tolerance does not give our approval for their own beliefs rather it reaffirms their dignity as a human person, a creature of the Almighty.

I don’t go around “preaching” to people. Although, when I am asked a question I normally give an answer. Some people will listen and some people wont, then there are others who will become offended.

I have read through the Scriptures and the Early Fathers, I see very little evidence to support the idea that Saint Peter the Apostle did not have the Primacy and Supremacy among the Apostles. But likewise to anything dealing with people who do not profess the Catholic faith (except some situations) in charity I invite them to convert and pray for their conversion to the Catholic faith. All people are called to join the Catholic Church for their eternal sanctification and salvation.

Edited March 11, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[RezaMikhaeil]

That's the thing thou, you might not see much charity for not believing in St. Peter's Primacy but others might. Due to the state of our fallible and imperfect minds, to assume that because you dont see much of a case for it, doesn't mean that there isn't a case for it, just that you don't see it. Therefore its difficult to have a conversation with you, if you hold that your position is correct 100% of the time.

Reza

[Mr.Cat]

I don’t find it offending that Orthodox believes differently than me or that Atheists don’t believe in God (even though I think it’s arrogant but that’s another story for another time). What I do find very offending is that I don’t go around preaching but if you come to a place where Catholic theology is to be taught, that the subject of religion comes up, or someone asks a question but they become offended by such statements then something is severely wrong with them and this I find highly offending.

But if you are starting to argue the Theory of Knowledge argument, the argument does provide for how we are to know of reality and truth. It is simply not in absolutes when it comes to the physical world but the more we enter the liberal sciences and the metaphysical sciences the closer we can become. Most likely because in the process of science and understanding first comes metaphysics, then liberal science, then physical science. But that isn’t the point of this conversation.

Edited March 11, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1212074' date='Mar 11 2007, 10:52 AM']Catholic theology is to be taught[/quote] Actually this is the "interreligious dialogue" section, not Catholic Theology section, "Transmundane Lane (serious spirituality)" is where Catholic Theology [with no debating or disagreements] is studied.

Reza

[Anomaly]

Catholic Cat,
You must make Dustin Seiber proud.

[Mr.Cat]

I find that very offending RezaLemmyng for misquoting me... I clearly listed three general situations. "where Catholic theology is to be taught, [b][u]that the subject of religion comes up[/u][/b], or [u][b]someone asks a question[/b][/u]..." Please do not misquote me in the future otherwise I will presume you have hostile intentions that are highly unChristian. Besides, this is a Catholic Message Board, there are non-Catholic (even Orthodox) message boards.

Anomaly, what on earth does that mean?

Edited March 12, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1212373' date='Mar 11 2007, 08:16 PM']I find that very offending RezaLemmyng for misquoting me... I clearly listed three general situations. "where Catholic theology is to be taught, [b][u]that the subject of religion comes up[/u][/b], or [u][b]someone asks a question[/b][/u]..." Please do not misquote me in the future otherwise I will presume you have hostile intentions that are highly unChristian. Besides, this is a Catholic Message Board, there are non-Catholic (even Orthodox) message boards.

Anomaly, what on earth does that mean?[/quote]

I didn't misquote you, you presume that you're right 100% of the time, you use slanderous terminology against orthodox and then claim innocent when orthodox use terminology to refer to catholics that you find "disrespectful". In regards to this being a "catholic message board" that is true but this particular section is for interfaith dialog, not you demanding and proclaiming that you're right, deliberately using insulting terminology to refer to orthodox, etc. If His Holiness Pope John Paul or Pope Benedict had your attitude, the dialog between him and the Orthodox Patriarchs would get nowhere!!!

Reza

[N/A Gone]

Reza

I have extreme respect for the orthodox, but I must ask. Isnt the issue of Roman primacy not about their positon as primate, but rather to the extent that authority can be used and how/if it can be used without the other bishops?

[Mr.Cat]

To be fair, I only used the term (which you have become obsessed with) I used to make a point since you used the same phrase to the Pope and to Catholics. Otherwise, I really never use the term, I use the term "communites of belief." But, I dont believe I have ever been offending by a term that you have used. (both before me)

This is also the Debate Board where both sides (just not the Non-Catholic) is given. I do give that Catholic Theology and when I said when I am offending about something you quoted only a few words out of a larger picture. This is misquoting for you used this whole thought process against me, when taken in context does not. I think you have a big problem with me (for whatever reason) but you trying to take this out on me is showing a very big ego and a problem with you about "always being right."

I have been wrong in the past and people have corrected me. In fact the reason why I do know about Orthodox belief is because I was corrected about something and then I started to learn. Then later on I started to read more about it. I have a lot of respect for the Orthodox for keeping to the faith (of what is there) but I eagerly await their full return to the Catholic Church.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1212426' date='Mar 11 2007, 10:07 PM']To be fair, I only used the term (which you have become obsessed with) I used to make a point since you used the same phrase to the Pope and to Catholics. Otherwise, I really never use the term, I use the term "communites of belief." But, I dont believe I have ever been offending by a term that you have used. (both before me)[/quote] No No No No No, you started using the phrase "schematic Orthodox" long before I ever hinted at anything about the Roman Church, as a matter of fact I'd started using the term Schimatic Roman [for just a few posts] in order to flip the script on you and help you realize what you have been saying is wrong [it obviously didn't work].

[quote]This is also the Debate Board where both sides (just not the Non-Catholic) is given. I do give that Catholic Theology and when I said when I am offending about something you quoted only a few words out of a larger picture. This is misquoting for you used this whole thought process against me, when taken in context does not. I think you have a big problem with me (for whatever reason) but you trying to take this out on me is showing a very big ego and a problem with you about "always being right."[/quote]For your information, you've misquoted me numerous times, as a matter of fact you even misquoted me as saying that Orthodox Believe St. Mary to be sinless [which I never said, ever], yet you claim that I "misquote you" by quoting several words in your sentence and letting you know [informally] that this is an "interfaith" section of the forum and you can't always presume that you're right but give others the opportunity to share their view points in order that you might understand something about their faith that you didn't already know. This is a two way street thou, because if you stand firm that you're right 100% of the time, and those of other faiths do the same, the "interfaith dialog" gets nowhere. You might not like everything that someone believes or says, but it's very arrogant to shun them, to proclaim that they are wrong without even giving them the right amount of time, etc. to explain their position. To proclaim that their church's doctrines [which you know nothing about, though you like to pretend to] says something other then what it says and what they believe.

His Holiness Pope John Paul [before falling asleep in the Lord] visited the Coptic Church and didn't even hint at the outlandish claims that you've made. Surely doctrine was discussed, that's true [which led to Pope John Paul asking His Holiness Pope Shenouda to Join the Roman Church] but Pope John Paul knew enough about Orthodoxy to know the Orthodox position and stance before suggesting his own was 100% right, his wording was also very kind [as was Pope Shenounda's] and the dialog was very peaceful [hence why St. Mark's relics were returned to the Coptic Church].

[quote]I have been wrong in the past and people have corrected me. In fact the reason why I do know about Orthodox belief is because I was corrected about something and then I started to learn. Then later on I started to read more about it. I have a lot of respect for the Orthodox for keeping to the faith (of what is there) but I eagerly await their full return to the Catholic Church.[/quote] That's great, but your past comments and proclaimations were very belittling and insulting, especially with your "Schimatic Orthodox" label, just because I wouldn't give you the answer that you would like to hear out of every Orthodox Christian's mouth.

On a side note: I'd expected this morning [it's 10:54AM here] to get a grip of PM's inside of my inbox of "I hate you" notes, but it was nice to get PM's saying the opposite.

Reza