Catholic Priest Admits In Debate $$=salvation!

[Budge]

"you can pay now or pay later"

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXeb-x63wGI"]WATCH VIDEO HERE[/url]

Edited March 14, 2007 by Budge

[RezaMikhaeil]

Even if a Roman Priest did [which I wouldn't agree with doctrinally], it's no different then the Word of Faith/Prosperity Doctrine brand of Charismatic Protestants.

Reza

[Budge]

Yeah youre right.

Word of Faith is WRONG.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1213474' date='Mar 14 2007, 10:17 AM']Yeah youre right.

Word of Faith is WRONG.[/quote]
I know an IFB preacher who teaches that Sex is picture of Salvation and Communion and that Christians need to have intercourse with Scripture. Does that make all IFB's stupid?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1213580' date='Mar 14 2007, 12:18 PM']I know an IFB preacher who teaches that Sex is picture of Salvation and Communion and that Christians need to have intercourse with Scripture. Does that make all IFB's stupid?[/quote]


Actually if you were familiar with JP II's theology of the body, your IFB pastor is on the right track. Marriage and intimacy are a foreshadowing of our communion with God in heaven. They are a sign of the greater reality of communion with God in the afterlife, which is a greater joy and pleasure.

Edited March 14, 2007 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Budge' post='1213445' date='Mar 14 2007, 09:32 AM']"you can pay now or pay later"

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXeb-x63wGI"]WATCH VIDEO HERE[/url][/quote]


And there was a bishop in africa that got married outside the Church to a moonie. The guy proved himself to be a loonie. Doesn't prove anything budge. Who cares.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1213583' date='Mar 14 2007, 12:27 PM']Actually if you were familiar with JP II's theology of the body, your IFB pastor is on the right track. Marriage and intimacy are a foreshadowing of our communion with God in heaven. They are a sign of the greater reality of communion with God in the afterlife, which is a greater joy and pleasure.[/quote]

Can you point me to a reference soure for this?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1213592' date='Mar 14 2007, 12:37 PM']Can you point me to a reference soure for this?[/quote]


www.christopherwest.com

It's great stuff. Learn it and love it.

[Budge]

[quote]I know an IFB preacher who teaches that Sex is picture of Salvation and Communion and that Christians need to have intercourse with Scripture. Does that make all IFB's stupid?[/quote]

Hey I call out the phony Baptists.

Even wrote about the IFB preacher in my new town whose church I walked out of as he preached touch not the Lords anointed and applied it to himself with crazy Dominionism included.

Catholics should call out the hirelings in their flock who preach false doctrine.

[Mateo el Feo]

Going back to the topic, I think the priest was taken off guard. I got the impression that the questioner seemed to be interested in rejecting the book of Tobit (because it is part of the Deuterocanonicals).

Even without Tobit and the rest of the Deuterocanonical books, we can find the language which associates righteousness with almsgiving all over the Holy Scriptures. With the help of my "handy-dandy" concordance, I'll quote some of them.

The most obvious quote is [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew25.htm#v34"]Matthew 25:34-40 (link)[/url]. It takes extreme theological acrobatics to avoid the plain text's meaning that we can be rewarded or damned based on our behavior on earth. Not that I think Budge isn't capable of such acrobatic contortions...

[quote name='Daniel 4:27' date=' KJV']Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.[/quote]Note: the latin "eleemosynis" means almsgiving, and is used where the KJV uses the term "righteousness". In any event, here's an OT quote making the connection between almsgiving/good deeds and forgiveness of sins.

A New Testament quote:[quote name='1 Tim 6:18-19' date=' KJV']That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.[/quote]Should I do as the questioner, and mock the KJV Bible with a question like his. How much "good works" does it take for me to "lay hold on eternal life"?

Or, another Gospel quote:[quote name='Luke 11:41' date=' KJV']But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.[/quote]So...when I give alms, "all things are clean unto you"? Sounds like the KJV says that $$=forgiveness of sins (i.e. salvation)

[quote name='Prov 21:26' date=' KJV']He coveteth greedily all the day long: but the righteous giveth and spareth not.[/quote]KJV's language is a bit archaic, but it's basically saying that the righteous give. From that, we can conclude that not giving makes one "non-righteous." Again, following the questioner's contempt for Scriptures, one could ask a question such as, "How much giving does it take to make a person righteous, according to the KJV?"

Based on my quotes, Budgianity may just have to remove Daniel, 1 Timothy, Proverbs, and the Gospels of St. Matthew and St. Luke, just to conform to the "Will of Budge." This really is the same problem the Martin Luther had. His novel theological views didn't fit the Bible, so he was forced to edit the Bible by removing problem books.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1213631' date='Mar 14 2007, 03:37 PM']Going back to the topic, I think the priest was taken off guard. I got the impression that the questioner seemed to be interested in rejecting the book of Tobit (because it is part of the Deuterocanonicals).

Even without Tobit and the rest of the Deuterocanonical books, we can find the language which associates righteousness with almsgiving all over the Holy Scriptures. With the help of my "handy-dandy" concordance, I'll quote some of them.

The most obvious quote is [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew25.htm#v34"]Matthew 25:34-40 (link)[/url]. It takes extreme theological acrobatics to avoid the plain text's meaning that we can be rewarded or damned based on our behavior on earth. Not that I think Budge isn't capable of such acrobatic contortions...

Note: the latin "eleemosynis" means almsgiving, and is used where the KJV uses the term "righteousness". In any event, here's an OT quote making the connection between almsgiving/good deeds and forgiveness of sins.

A New Testament quote:Should I do as the questioner, and mock the KJV Bible with a question like his. How much "good works" does it take for me to "lay hold on eternal life"?

Or, another Gospel quote:So...when I give alms, "all things are clean unto you"? Sounds like the KJV says that $$=forgiveness of sins (i.e. salvation)

KJV's language is a bit archaic, but it's basically saying that the righteous give. From that, we can conclude that not giving makes one "non-righteous." Again, following the questioner's contempt for Scriptures, one could ask a question such as, "How much giving does it take to make a person righteous, according to the KJV?"

Based on my quotes, Budgianity may just have to remove Daniel, 1 Timothy, Proverbs, and the Gospels of St. Matthew and St. Luke, just to conform to the "Will of Budge." This really is the same problem the Martin Luther had. His novel theological views didn't fit the Bible, so he was forced to edit the Bible by removing problem books.[/quote]
I want to call Budge out on this.

God considers not paying thithes (10 per cent) and offerings (a little extra) stealing from him in scripture.

[quote name='Malachi 3:7-9' date=' KJV']From the days of your fathers ye have turned aside from Mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto Me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye say: 'Wherein shall we return?' Will a man rob God? Yet ye rob Me. But ye say: 'Wherein have we robbed Thee?' In tithes and heave-offerings. Ye are cursed with the curse, yet ye rob Me, even this whole nation.[/quote]

So if God didn't like people witholding in the old testament, than he doesn't like it in the new testament.

One must give to God and to others, period.

In the new testament, it is no longer 10 per cent, but you give all of yourself over to God, and use everything to give to God, who gave you his all through the Christ's death on the cross.

[Budge]

[quote]I want to call Budge out on this.

God considers not paying thithes (10 per cent) and offerings (a little extra) stealing from him in scripture.[/quote]

Actually the whole tithes thing is something preachers have SKEWED, these things are DIRECTED at THEM not the people.[url="http://members.citynet.net/morton/tithe.htm"]LEARN THE TRUTH ABOUT TITHING[/url]

BTW this is directed at CLERGY [sons of Levi] not LAITY...

[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mal/Mal003.html#top"]MALACHI 3[/url]

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Budge' post='1214004' date='Mar 15 2007, 09:19 AM']Actually the whole tithes thing is something preachers have SKEWED, these things are DIRECTED at THEM not the people.[url="http://members.citynet.net/morton/tithe.htm"]LEARN THE TRUTH ABOUT TITHING[/url]

BTW this is directed at CLERGY [sons of Levi] not LAITY...

[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mal/Mal003.html#top"]MALACHI 3[/url][/quote]
Guess what Budge, we are the royal priesthood - or the spiritual descendants of Levi.

Still, you didn't read the rest of my comment, so you are misrepresenting me yet again.

IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, WE ARE TO GIVE ALL WE ARE TO GOD, BECAUSE GOD WITHHELD NOTHING FROM US WITH THE DEATH OF THE CHRIST ON THE CROSS!

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1214053' date='Mar 15 2007, 12:18 PM']Still, you didn't read the rest of my comment, so you are misrepresenting me yet again.[/quote]Consider yourself lucky. At least she made a half-hearted reply.

I gave her five quotes from Holy Scripture, and she hasn't posted any response. Once again, it appears that Budge has no interest in the understanding the Holy Bible, but is only interested in spamming us.

[Budge]

Actually I give you credit for trying.

Not many Catholics here quote scripture.

Actually the works come out of the FAITH and each individual Christian is called to what whatever via GOd. Its not supposed to be the other way around.

however MONEY is not supposed to be the foundation. A Christian can give, time and other resources.

One thing about the Catholic system is the well-off rich person can certainly give more "alms" and do more pilgrmages to seek after indulgences [yes I know they have other ways to "earn" them but the whole idea of indulgences is wrong].... At the foundation it is an unfair system that gives those with $$$ an unfair advantage.

Anyone here who thinks they can buy God off with cash is going to be in big time trouble![b]

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:20 [u]But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.[/u]

[/b]

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Budge' post='1214230' date='Mar 15 2007, 06:11 PM']Actually I give you credit for trying.

Not many Catholics here quote scripture.

Actually the works come out of the FAITH and each individual Christian is called to what whatever via GOd. Its not supposed to be the other way around.

however MONEY is not supposed to be the foundation. A Christian can give, time and other resources.

One thing about the Catholic system is the well-off rich person can certainly give more "alms" and do more pilgrmages to seek after indulgences [yes I know they have other ways to "earn" them but the whole idea of indulgences is wrong].... At the foundation it is an unfair system that gives those with $$$ an unfair advantage.

Anyone here who thinks they can buy God off with cash is going to be in big time trouble![b]

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:20 [u]But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.[/u]

[/b][/quote]
For the first time, I agree giving doesn't save you. The fact you are saved, you give your all to God.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1214230' date='Mar 15 2007, 06:11 PM']Actually I give you credit for trying.
Not many Catholics here quote scripture.[/quote]

Why Budge I quote you scripture ALL the time.

[Mateo el Feo]

Budge, most of your post is based on strawmen, which I'm happy to dispell.[quote name='Budge' post='1214230' date='Mar 15 2007, 06:11 PM']Actually I give you credit for trying.

Not many Catholics here quote scripture.[/quote]Please, the patronizing attitude doesn't help win any sympathy.

[quote name='Budge' post='1214230' date='Mar 15 2007, 06:11 PM']Actually the works come out of the FAITH and each individual Christian is called to what whatever via GOd. Its not supposed to be the other way around.[/quote]It isn't the Catholics' fault that you make a false dichotomy out of faith and works. What does the epistle of St. James say? "Faith without works is..."

[quote name='Budge' post='1214230' date='Mar 15 2007, 06:11 PM']however MONEY is not supposed to be the foundation. A Christian can give, time and other resources.[/quote]Wow, really? Teach me more, oh wise one...
[quote name='Budge' post='1214230' date='Mar 15 2007, 06:11 PM']One thing about the Catholic system is the well-off rich person can certainly give more "alms" and do more pilgrmages to seek after indulgences [yes I know they have other ways to "earn" them but the whole idea of indulgences is wrong].... At the foundation it is an unfair system that gives those with $$$ an unfair advantage.[/quote]This "Catholic System" that you're talking about only exists in the imaginations of Protestants. As a Catholic, I have never seen anything which would lend truth to this. Heck, the Catholic New Testament has the parable of the widow's mite.

In fact, the only sign I have seen of a religion which judges contributions is the protestant pastor who does his weekly collection and actually [b]reads outloud[/b] each parishioner's contributions. That might work for the pharisees, but it wouldn't work too well for the widow. And it certainly wouldn't happen in a Catholic Church.

[quote name='Budge' post='1214230' date='Mar 15 2007, 06:11 PM']Anyone here who thinks they can buy God off with cash is going to be in big time trouble![/quote]Tell that to the protestant pastor above. In any event, the speaker in the video was quoting "almsgiving", which is helping the poor and needy, not giving to the church in a collection basket.

[quote name='Budge' post='1214230' date='Mar 15 2007, 06:11 PM'][b]Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:20 [u]But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.[/u][/b][/quote]Budge, this is an excellent example of a strawman argument.

Thank you for avoiding all of my Scripture quotes. You have successfully defeated your imaginary strawmen, but you have yet to challenge what Catholics actually believe.

Edited March 16, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[Archangel]

Jesus taught us the value of almsgiving:

Mark 10:17-22
17 As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, "[b][u]Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?[/u][/b]"
18 Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
19 You know the commandments: 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.'"
20 He replied and said to him, "Teacher, all of these I have observed from my youth."
21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, "You are lacking in one thing. [b][u]Go, sell what you have, and give to (the) poor and you will have treasure in heaven[/u][/b]; then come, follow me."
22 At that statement his face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1214230' date='Mar 15 2007, 04:11 PM']Not many Catholics here quote scripture.[/quote]


Selective vision, or willfully blind?