Do You See Anything Wrong With This Picture?

[Budge]

[img]http://images.chron.com/photos/2007/02/23/5263513/600xPopupGallery.jpg[/img]

{this is the baking pan from a school cafeteria, that supposely has image of Mary on it}

Some people need to learn what SIMULACRUM is....

[quote]Simulacrum (plural: simulacra), from the Latin simulare, "to make like, to put on an appearance of", originally meaning a material object representing something (such as a cult image representing a deity, or a painted still-life of a bowl of fruit). By the 1800s it developed a sense of a "mere" image, an empty form devoid of spirit, and descended to connote a specious or fallow representation.[/quote]

Do you see the Shrine there with all the votive candles on representing one Catholic ***NOT WORSHIPING MARY***

I count THIRTY NINE votive candles and fresh cut flowers...is THAT SERVING AN IDOL, or not?

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

[thessalonian]

Why your able to see inside hearts Budge? Ever read Josh 7. I am sure you would have Joshua and the Elders condemned to hell for bowing before that ark of the covenant. Odd thing is God granted them with victory the next day. David and Solomon bowed down before Bethsheba. Were they guilty of idolatry? NOPE! They honored her. Do you think it's idolatry to put flowers on a grave? A candle? Don't force your overly legalistic beliefs on us and attempt straw man and red herring lies in order to strip the ignorant out of the Catholic faith. That is the way of the wolf.

[Budge]

I think[b] ignorance[/b] is what would lead someone to kneel in front of a cookie sheet with a stain on it.

Who cares what is inside their heart? The heart is a deceitful thing, they have been fooled.

[thessalonian]

Whether the cookie sheet was an accident of nature or an act of God (there have been a few of those in history like buring bushes) God will judge their hearts. Not you. Catholicism does not teach that Mary is God in any way, shape, or form. Honoring her as the Mother of Jesus Christ the Son of God is no sin.


Who cares what is inside their hearts? Everyone has a deceitful heart? What bible are you reading dudess. Didn't God say " I will give you a new heart?? Lot's of other verses but I don't have the time right now.

[Azriel]

Nope.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217212' date='Mar 22 2007, 07:32 AM']I think[b] ignorance[/b] is what would lead someone to kneel in front of a cookie sheet with a stain on it.[/quote]

Judging a woman's intelligence base on one picture? Come on Budge just because your always wrong doesnt mean you get to be a bully.


[quote name='Budge' post='1217212' date='Mar 22 2007, 07:32 AM']Who cares what is inside their heart?[/quote]

Jesus Christ does, you it would seem do not.


[quote name='Budge' post='1217212' date='Mar 22 2007, 07:32 AM']The heart is a deceitful thing, they have been fooled.[/quote]

Fooled as in fool? "And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." - Jesus Christ

Edited March 22, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Maria]

Looks more like a nun than Mary

[Jaime]

Yes this picture is terribly wrong

Its cropped poorly and the color balance is all off!!


Other than that I have no problems with it

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217207' date='Mar 22 2007, 07:03 AM']I count THIRTY NINE votive candles and fresh cut flowers...is THAT SERVING AN IDOL, or not?[/quote]

On this same kind of mindset, have you ever thought that you could be worshiping your anti-catholic addiction? You seem to be mighty [b]devoted[/b], and [b]devote[/b] alot of time to it. You feed your addiction in the morning, you feed your addiction in the afternoon, and you feed your addiction at night. Wouldn't your time be better spent praying more to Christ, than posting hate against His beautiful Holy Bride all the time?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217212' date='Mar 22 2007, 07:32 AM']I think[b] ignorance[/b] is what would lead someone to kneel in front of a cookie sheet with a stain on it.

Who cares what is inside their heart? The heart is a deceitful thing, they have been fooled.[/quote]
I'm pretty sure there's a verse in the Bible about God seeing virtue in the heart where others do not.

I think it's in reference to King David. I wonder if God would see virtue in his heart in virtue of his love for the Queen Mother of Israel.

Anyway, a cookie sheet with a stain is pretty odd, but to use that as an example of Catholic Marian devotion is even more odd. You know that's not characteristic and you know that we find it as weird as you do. Please stop using strawman arguments. Please stop attacking the whole faith based on the inability of some to practice it perfectly.

God bless,

Micah

[Budge]

[quote]You know that's not characteristic and you know that we find it as weird as you do.[/quote]

If you find it WEIRD, why not say so, intead of you and the other Catholics here going on about "hearts" and stuff.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217255' date='Mar 22 2007, 09:15 AM']If you find it WEIRD, why not say so, intead of you and the other Catholics here going on about "hearts" and stuff.[/quote]
I went on about hearts. You can't judge hearts. I don't think anyone here, though, would disagree that an image of Mary appearing on a cookie sheet is weird...and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone here who didn't highly question the authenticity.

However, I don't find venerating an authentic image of Mary to be weird.

[Apotheoun]

Budge,

The Catholic Church distinguishes between [i]veneration[/i] ([i]dulia[/i] or [i]proskynesis[/i]) and [i]adoration[/i] ([i]latria[/i]). [i]Veneration[/i] is a type of honor that can be given to Mary, the saints, and even to our parents or to anyone in who is in authority, while [i]adoration[/i] is reserved to God alone. Now, you may not like or even agree with this theological distinction, but you should at least recognize that Catholics make this distinction, because otherwise you misrepresent the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

A staw man argument is -- by its very nature -- unpersuasive.

God bless,
Todd

[Sirklawd]

im going to take this oppertunity to use some common sense. My own common sense tells me im wasting my time.

these people that do this. that kneel down and light candles and place flowers in front of crying statues, paint smears, burn marks, and various potato chips that may or may not look like a religious figure do not do so because they worship these things.

God and Jesus and everything they believe in is not suddenly replaced by a cookie sheet or a statue. These people do not pray "OH GREAT COOKIE SHEET PLEASE REMOVE MY SINS AND LET ME LIVE WITH YOU IN HEAVEN!".

This is rediculous, as is your arguement.

The people who kneel in front of these things do so because they honestly believe that it is a miracle (whether it is or not is not the point at the moment). To them these things are absolute proof of the existence of God and Jesus, and it is a direct mark. a direct work of the Lord. A a tiny footprint of the infinite lord that is in fact visible proof. These people go there and kneel not at the cookie sheet, but to see God's work.

The same exact thing happens to the man who kneels down in a field of grass and stares up at the big blue open sky to prayer and give thanks. He is not worshiping the sky. He is worshipping God, who created the sky. To some people seeing the sky is proof enough of God's existence. To others, it is the image of Mary on a cookie sheet. They do not worship a cookie sheet, they worship God who made the mircale happen.

A similar example is the man who prays before a crucifix. That man does not worship the wood and glue that composes that particular crucifix. That man does not worship even the artist who spent time carving out the model of Jesus. That man worships GOD. The crucifix is only the focus because of the memories associated with it.

you are absolutely correct in one part though. If someone somewhere is worshipping a cookie sheet instead of Jesus, clearly that person has made a tremendous mistake.

[Mr.Cat]

The misunderstanding about “idolatry” comes from taking the Commandments out of the contexts of the Scriptures. One must remember that our God wished that the Jewish People be preserved from the idol worship of the Egyptians and of those nations around them, so this command was pointed against “pagan worship” rather than the use of images, icons, or statues. Moreover the command does not forbid statues but rather “strange gods” and “adoring” or “serving” them. Catholics do not “adore” or “serve” images or statues namely to apply “[b]divine qualities[/b]” (strange gods) to them therefore the pious use of images and statues can be used in the Worship of God.[quote][b]Exodus 20:2-6[/b]
“[b][u]I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt[/u][/b], [b][u]out of the house of bondage[/u][/b]. Thou shalt not have [u][b]strange gods[/b][/u] before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. [u][b]Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them[/b][/u]: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me: And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.”
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/02020.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/02020.htm[/url][/quote]For the use of statues find a very strong rooting in Jewish Tradition and more strikingly Almighty God commands their construction for use in devotion, but for use “for devotion” meaning the end of the devotion is the image it self.[quote][b]Exodus 25:18-22[/b]
"[u]Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle[/u]. Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered. In which thou shalt put the testimony that I will give thee. Thence will I give orders, and will speak to thee over the propitiatory, and from the midst of the two cherubims, which shall be upon the ark of the testimony, all things which I will command the children of Israel by thee."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/02025.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/02025.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]1 Chron. 28:18-19 [/b]
"And for the altar of incense, he gave the purest gold: an[u]d to make the likeness of the chariot of the cherubims spreading their wings, and covering the ark of the covenant of the Lord[/u]. All these things, said he, came to me written by the hand of the Lord that I might understand all the works of the pattern."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/13028.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/13028.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Ezek. 41:15[/b]
"And he measured the length of the building over against it, which was separated at the back of it: and [u][b]the galleries on both sides a hundred cubits: and the inner temple[/b][/u], and the porches of the court."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/31041.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/31041.htm[/url][/quote]In the Book of Exodus the Lord commands them to construct images of “cherubims” which would contradict God’s command to not have “Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above…”

The Angels are in Heaven with the Lord so why then does the Lord command their construction in the use of the Ark, which plays as a center of Jewish Devotion. Thus we know that the commandment not to have graven images does refer to pagan worship and therefore not all “images” or “statues” are violations of Divine Law thus because our God commanded in the past images to be used in worship of Him, the use of statues is praiseworthy.

In the First Book of Chronicles the Lord again commands that at the altar of “incense” that more images be placed. Non-Catholics who oppose the use of statuary attempt to argue that “incense” is always a sign of worship but here God allows the statues again to play in the role of “true worship” of God but the images themselves are not worshiped.[quote][b]Gen. 19:1[/b]
"And the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of the city. And [u]seeing them, he rose up and went to meet them[/u]: [b]and worshipped prostrate to the ground[/b]."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/01019.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/01019.htm[/url][/quote]Moreover the Blessed Virgin being the Mother of God and the Mother of Man, she is indeed our Mother. The Commandments of God mention that we are commanded to obey and honor our Mother. Later in the Scriptures we see that all whom do not honor their mothers are cursed. As Lot as I posted previously fell prostrate to the Angels and they did not correct them, there is a difference in veneration that is given to the Blessed Virgin (hyperdulia) and the rest of the Angels and Saints (dulia). But there is “worship” (latria) that is offered to Almighty God alone.
[quote][b]Deuteronomy 5:16[/b]
"Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/05005.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/05005.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Deuteronomy 27:16[/b]
"Cursed be he that honoureth not his father and mother: and all the people shall say: Amen."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/05027.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/05027.htm[/url][/quote]Also Saint Gabriel the Archangel “hails” (in veneration) the Blessed Virgin, Saint Elisabeth venerates the Blessed Virgin calling her “blessed” then in the same word to adore our Lord she uses the word “blessed.” Then the Blessed Virgin inspired by the Holy Spirit declares that all generations shall call her blessed, showing that all generations will have devotion to her as true Christians will.[quote][b]Luke 1:28[/b]
"And the angel being come in, said unto her: [b]Hail[/b], full of grace, the Lord is with thee: [u]blessed art thou among women[/u]."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49001.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49001.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Luke 1:42[/b]
"And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: [b]Blessed[/b] art thou among women, and [b]blessed[/b] [u]is the fruit of thy womb[/u]."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49001.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49001.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Luke 1:48[/b]
Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth [u]all generations shall call me [b]blessed[/b][/u].
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49001.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49001.htm[/url][/quote]

Edited March 22, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat