Pandora's Nfp

[Aloysius]

I'm all about marriage being primarily for procreation and the ideal goal of marriage being one in which a couple simply fulfills all their marital duties in love, faith, and trust in God's providence (since NFP is given only for those with serious reasons to use it, I ascertain that the ideal is to not have serious reasons to use it)

I'm also young and my girlfriend and I are planning to be married within the next couple of years. But in keeping with my high ideals that I would stick to even if they drove me mad against a cruel unforgiving world, I have this idea that if one has this knowledge and understanding of the morality surrounding children and family, one should not marry unless they are ready to enter into this ideal situation. In other words, I don't want to marry until we can safely engage in marriage without planning about when to have or not have children, the ideal state of marriage.

I was wondering, however, if NFP used at the beginning of marriage makes the ideal state of marriage, as I have described it, impossible for a couple. It would seem to me that once the couple knew of the cycle, that knowledge could always be known... that even if they stopped tracking it they would have a rough idea of when babies could be made and when they could not... it would seem they could never again really resign themselves to Divine Providence in ignorant bliss of whether or not one or the other act of marital love could bring them a child.

So... is it possible to really end NFP and resign yourself to total acceptance of Divine Planning for your family? or is it a Pandora's Box for a couple, that once they know the mechanism by which life comes into their marriage they are forever bound to have some type of natural family planning?

I am not here critiquing anyone who uses NFP or anything... all Catholics should understand that it is an acceptable deviation from what has always been held to be the ideal form of marriage wherein the couple does not plan their children but merely accepts them and thus should be confident that they have serious reasons and are not threatened in the least by the idea that this is the ideal way to do things.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

You can always use NFP to find the best times for having children, i.e. when your wife is most fertile.

Oh, and the cycle can change...a lot. I know women who've had their periods two weeks early because finals stressed them out too much. Plus, dorms usually alter the cycle because there's usually one dominant girl who screws up everyone else's cycle.

Anyway, I think NFP can be used without necessarily having it programmed into the marriage. However, I also think that waiting for the ideal marriage situation is going to keep you waiting a long time. You probably won't raise enough money to support as many children as you happen to have if you're having them in a completely random pattern. You never know what serious difficulties life may throw at you.

[Aloysius]

my asking of these questions is indicative of my flexibility on just how ideal of a situation we would have to be in to contract marriage. I would not want to use NFP to have children (unless there was some serious reason, ie we were having prolonged failure to have children without it) any more than I would want to use NFP to avoid children, I would want my marriage to plateau into a situation where we did not feel it was our place to plan one way or another even if it began using NFP. but the knowledge of NFP seems like it would make that plateau very difficult to reach if not impossible. how does one completely dissavow their knowledge of how to plan when and where to have children? even if the cycles change, a rough idea of the cycles would still always cloud this ideal somehow it seems... maybe not, I don't know. but if it was going to damage the possibility for the ideal, I would much rather wait until we could enter into marriage without any knowledge or intention of using NFP (which I do not believe is too high of an ideal; one needn't be rich, just moderately well-off and capable of weathering storms). I don't care if that's when I'm 30 (well, I do CARE, but I would have priorities that would supercede that emotion, and I'd certainly try to acheive that stage ASAP)... if NFP seems like too much of a pandora's box to me I won't be able to begin a marriage with it in good conscience.

but the jury's still out for me on whether it's a pandora's box... I'm wondering if there's anyone with personal experience who used NFP for a time but stopped altogether at some point in their marriage. To date, I have never seen any testimonies about NFP to this effect... I have seen the testimonies of couples who used NFP to avoid conception for a while, then used it to acheive conception, then used it to space out the conceptions and determine exactly how many kids they want. And if circumstances and grave reasons necessitated that, I do not judge that against them... but that's still not the ideal as far as two millenia of Catholic Teaching are concerned and I'd rather have a go at the ideal if at all possible (or at least a plateau of the ideal)

[Archaeology cat]

I would agree with Raphael here. I've only been married a little over a year, so I can't help with anything about stopping NFP. When we got engaged we both had jobs, then my husband lost his and then God led us to go back to school, so postponing conception is necessary at the moment. However, we both eagerly await the time that we can use NFP to achieve conception.

Personally, there are many benefits to using NFP. One is that it increases communication and awareness of my body. I used to be on BCPs for medical reasons, but have obviously stopped that now. Using NFP allows me to see exactly what's going on so that I can get treatment as soon as something changes. I've actually done that; my chart showed something abnormal, and I was able to point it out to the doctor who could then use that to provide a treatment. It turned out to be nothing serious, but I'm glad that I could see that anyway.

And just a note that spacing children isn't just about the finances. It is actually fairly unhealthy to have children too close together, especially if you're like me and have a low body weight to begin with. In my family, a lack of planning after the birth of one child and therefore getting pregnant very quickly after that has resulted in numerous miscarriages for my mother & grandmother.

And if we were to stop using NFP at some point, well, it would be quite difficult to tell anything about my cycle because it's so irregular (it was even worse when I lived with other women, because I wasn't the one with the dominant hormones). Of course, since I know the signs I'd have some idea probably, but so would any other woman, though I wouldn't necessarily see the pattern anymore without charting it. Of course, I'm also the geek who thinks it's really cool to see the patterns.

[N/A Gone]

There needs to be a balance in understanding Divine planning and personal responsability. Drifting too close to Calvin and his utter predestination could be at risk. I personally do not apply the "divine planning" argument to myself or to others. The idea that if you have a child it is because God wanted you to have that kid, and if He does not want you to have a kid you wont. Thats not how it works. There is personal responsability in using the gift that God gives us. NFP is viewing the natural process. Intentions can be wrong, but the process itself isnt.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1219463' date='Mar 25 2007, 04:38 PM']There needs to be a balance in understanding Divine planning and personal responsability. Drifting too close to Calvin and his utter predestination could be at risk. I personally do not apply the "divine planning" argument to myself or to others. The idea that if you have a child it is because God wanted you to have that kid, and if He does not want you to have a kid you wont. Thats not how it works. There is personal responsability in using the gift that God gives us. NFP is viewing the natural process. Intentions can be wrong, but the process itself isnt.[/quote]
Yeah. I think God wants us to ask for children, too. I mean...He doesn't expect us to just sit around and go, "okay, God...whenever you want." If we really, really want to have kids at a certain time, then that is good and God favors it, because we want to help create life. It may not be according to His schedule, but I don't see any downside to trying diligently to conceive...God sees it, sees the love, sees the desire for life...I think He's pleased by that, not disappointed that we're trying to take it into our own hands. In fact, think about it this way: you know that such-and-such a time is the best time to conceive and the time God is producing the most fertility...taking that into consideration, when you try very hard during that time to conceive, you are giving God your body and your fertility, and so you are actually placing more love and trust in His hands. So long as you also place your will in His hands, I think it's a very admirable thing.

[Aloysius]

so do you disagree with the idea of the ideal being no-NFP? then why must NFP only be used in grave circumstances? it seems pretty clear that the Church is saying "unless something forces you to use NFP, you should not attempt to gain control over when you have children"

this has nothing to do with calvinism. the natural state of marriage is one which does not include planning; this is a sacred truth about the sacrament passed down from Old Testament times through the entire history of the Church. this is not about what is predestined, it is about the attitude which is to be taken in marriages ideally.

and I'm not saying not to desire babies at a certain time... just that during those times you merely make love more often than normal and petition God to bless you with children at that time. but it is not good to try to take control over when and how many children you have. that's what the whole cult of the golden calf is about... the symbol of the horns is like a crescent moon, it was a cult of fertility and it's symbol was all about the cycle which is so central to NFP. using it without necessity one way or the other would be just as bad as those pagans of the cults of fertility of old.

it is clear from the teaching of the Church that the ideal does not include family planning, natural or otherwise; because NFP is offered in the context of being acceptable only in grave circumstances; grave circumstances are clearly never preferable.

It should be undisputed that the ideal situation according to the Church does not include control and planning over fertility; that is clearly offered as a concession when circumstances NECESSITATE it.

so no matter how much you like knowing about all this, from the Church's perspective the use of that knowledge must be reserved solely to when there is a non-ideal situation constraining you from carrying out the marital duties the way countless Catholics through the centuries have carried them out; perfect openness to life but not control unless it is necessary.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I'm with Aloysius on this situation...

We live in a society that has a VERY different perspective on economics and family life. NFP is used by well-intentioned couples far more often than is "gravely necessary". We have no concept of what "grave" means in a society where efficiency equals NOW. I am of the strong opinion that a couple should not knowingly enter into a marriage that would start out with NFP-- NFP impedes the "freedom" to totally enter into the marriage. NFP implies a deep hesistation on the part of the couple to fully engage the purpose of marriage. If you can't reasonably conceive a child right away, then there is reason enough to prolong the engagement until the couple is fully ready for marriage.

[Birgitta Noel]

No, the Church does not teach that one may only have a grave reason to use NFP. They teach that there must be a serious, not grave, reason to use NFP to avoid having children. One may use NFP to chart one's cycle which may reveal that the woman has a progesterone deficiency which could effect her ability to carry a pregnancy to term. Or one might need to postpone children for a short period of time, ie three months or so after childbirth to allow the woman's body time to heal. We are blessed by the gift of reason. It's not foolish to use the knowledge of our bodies given to us by God to work in tandem with Him. We co-operate in becoming parents. Note, that's CO-operate.

As for not getting married until one is able to not use NFP to avoid NFP that has been hotly debated here before. Do a search and I'm sure you'll find the thread. That mindset suggests that the couple is sinning by using NFP. Be careful what you suggest.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Interesting discussion...

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1219481' date='Mar 25 2007, 11:56 PM']Yeah. I think God wants us to ask for children, too. I mean...He doesn't expect us to just sit around and go, "okay, God...whenever you want." If we really, really want to have kids at a certain time, then that is good and God favors it, because we want to help create life. It may not be according to His schedule, but I don't see any downside to trying diligently to conceive...God sees it, sees the love, sees the desire for life...I think He's pleased by that, not disappointed that we're trying to take it into our own hands. In fact, think about it this way: you know that such-and-such a time is the best time to conceive and the time God is producing the most fertility...taking that into consideration, when you try very hard during that time to conceive, you are giving God your body and your fertility, and so you are actually placing more love and trust in His hands. So long as you also place your will in His hands, I think it's a very admirable thing.[/quote]

You said it much better than I could have (or did).

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='The Little Way' post='1220147' date='Mar 26 2007, 09:41 PM']As for not getting married until one is able to not use NFP to avoid NFP that has been hotly debated here before. Do a search and I'm sure you'll find the thread. That mindset suggests that the couple is sinning by using NFP. Be careful what you suggest.[/quote]
The thread was in the NFP phorum, which was deleted.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1219780' date='Mar 26 2007, 01:31 AM']so do you disagree with the idea of the ideal being no-NFP? then why must NFP only be used in grave circumstances? it seems pretty clear that the Church is saying "unless something forces you to use NFP, you should not attempt to gain control over when you have children"[/quote]
I don't think that's what the Church is saying at all. I think the Church is saying that you may always use NFP to conceive and should be entirely encouraged to do so as much as possible. I think the Church also says that for a grave/serious reason (I'm sorry, but I don't see a semantic difference between grave and serious), you may use NFP to space children (which still has the intention to have children, just at a better time, and is still open to life).

God bless,

Micah

[Aloysius]

grave mans serious. the distinction you make is helpful for those who are no familiar with the english language, though. I do believe "grave" is the word used in the official translation of Humanae Vitae. it doesn't mean life-or-death reasons, that would be "mortal", it means serious, and that means

after I made the last post I thought about it and figured this would be a potential position, but I think I still disagree with it (the position being that one only has to have a grave reason to avoid children, not to use NFP)

the reason I disagree with this position is this: the knowledge of NFP puts a couple in direct control of when they DO or DO NOT have children. therefore, the use of NFP directly gives the couple the capacity to avoid children. THEREFORE, even when they keep track of it in order to plan when they are having children, they are including periods of avoiding having children.

"grave" reasons, the word used by Humanae Vitae, imply that those reasons are not the ideal situation. perhaps, now that I think about it, your attempt to distinguish into "serious" vs. "grave" does, in fact, lose a vital connotation. but you are right to note "grave" is not intended to be "mortal", but rather "serious" and "unfortunate"

[quote]In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised, either by the deliberate and generous decision to raise a numerous family, or by the decision, made for grave motives and with due respect for the moral law, to avoid for the time being, or even for an indeterminate period, a new birth.[/quote]the official translation chose the word "grave" for a reason (the same word used later to refer to consequences of artificial birth control). It clearly connotates that this is something NOT PREFERABLE, NOT IDEAL. Only when one lives in a situation that is not ideal can one use NFP to avoid, and for the reasons above (namely the connectedness between planning a specific time and thus avoiding other times) plan to have children.

I would only agree with using the word "serious" if one kept in tact the idea that these serious reasons are not objectively good. It is not objectively good that a couple is unable to afford many children (read: blessings). this comes strait out of Catholic Teaching 101, we should all understand that it is the less-than-ideal situation to use NFP. It is only allowed when something BAD causes its NECESSITY. Humanae Vitae applies Thomistic double effect: the act is not evil in itself (unlike Artificial Birth Control which would be evil in itself), the effect is to avoid children that could not be supported, and the double effect is to not have a natural unplanned cycle of marriage as has been done always.

I figured I should re-read Humanae Vitae in order to refresh myself and make sure I was not in error in my assertion that the ideal situation is to not have to use NFP. I was not dissappointed in my efforts, catching a great paragraph that I had not previously noted but which definitively puts to rest the the question of whether it is ideal to have to use NFP. Perpetual-NFP marriages make procreation subject completely to the will of the couple.

[quote]In the task of transmitting life, therefore, they are not free to proceed completely at will, as if they could determine in a wholly autonomous way the honest path to follow; but they must conform their activity to the creative intention of God, expressed in the very nature of marriage and of its acts, and manifested by the constant teaching of the Church[/quote]

This is what I am saying, and this makes it clear that marriage is ideally excercised in conformity to the creative intention of God WITHOUT proceeding completely at will; that will must only be excercised over this act when grave circumstances necessitate it.

so the question: is there any example of any testimony of folks who started using NFP but, when the grave circumstances were over, ceased to use NFP one way or the other (keeping in mind that using it to produce children implies periods of avoiding them as well)? because otherwise, this pandora's box of NFP makes a couple incapable of ever acheiving the ideal state of marriage as manifested by the constant teaching of the Church: that is not the place of the couple's will to plan but rather the place of God's creative intention.

again, anyone who uses NFP for serious reasons (which are not ideal) need not feel attacked by this; they are caught up in a situation which is not ideal and it is the only way they are able to engage in responsible parenthood. the doctrinal point being made is that NFP should ideally not be necessary. NFP is a life-saver thrown out to couples drowning in modern economic conditions: the ideal is for the couple to be back on the boat and capable of not planning one way or the other.

[LouisvilleFan]

I can't claim to be any kind of expert on the fertility cycle, but I'm pretty sure that within a month or so of quitting NFP, you really can't know where your wife is in her cycle. I think there are a few days, perhaps following the period, when you can be sure that conception is impossible. But that's really about all you could know without tracking things, which is why the cycle has to be tracked