What Does This Scripture Mean To You?

[Budge]

[b]
[u] "But to him that worketh not[/u], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -Romans 4:5[/b]

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1221135' date='Mar 28 2007, 12:16 PM'][b]
[u] "But to him that worketh not[/u], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -Romans 4:5[/b][/quote]

Something about deadeth batteries?


Not falling into that one Budgie. For the 1,299,272nd time...you cannot take one verse from the Bible and build a theology around it. Gotta put it into context (both the particular book and the Bible as a whole) and remember the writer, the audience, the reason for the writing, and the culture/language/mannerisms of the time.

Sounds like yer trying to use a single verse to assert that damnable heresy of Sola Fide. Sorry. Gotta use the rest of the Bible too Budgie. Try the Epistle of James to start with...oh yeah...yer budski Luther tried to toss that one out too....

[Thy Geekdom Come]

In light of the previous verse, it seems quite clear that St. Paul is speaking against the Pelagian concept of earning one's own salvation. Since the Catholic Church agrees with this (especially since St. Paul was a Catholic), I think that whatever point to plan to make is moot.

Faith is an act, Budge. Faith is a work. St. Paul is contrasting between works and faith-works. Works won't bring salvation; faith, worked out, will. That is why we work out our salvation...those are St. Paul's own words.

For St. Paul, though, the audience assumed that "faith" meant "faith working" and therefore St. Paul had no problem just saying "faith," since they would get the point. The problem arises when people assume falsely that their semantic range (how they define words) is the same as St. Paul's.

[thessalonian]

good explanation Raph. Budge will not agree of coruse.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b]Romans 4:1-5[/b]
"What shall we say then that Abraham hath found, who is our father according to the flesh. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt. But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52004.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52004.htm[/url][/quote]“By works” refers not to Good Works in Christ but rather works done by one’s own motivation and intentions instead of those of Christ. They then make reference to it not being before God showing that this work is not done for the glory of God as Good Works in Christ are but rather for the glory of men, thus have no significant value before God. “Reputed” showing that we are not working from the grace and bounty of God but of those of worldly means that are justifying ourselves before the world rather than before God, likewise we are seeking glory among men rather then before God. So theses works have little to no merit in the sight of Divine Glory.

The focus here on faith is to show that good works must be done in faith otherwise they are useless. If Saint Paul the Apostle writes “alone” in the Book of Romans three times but never with the word "faith" so if he wished to teach "faith alone" he would of done so. Moreover, other writings from Saint Paul show us that faith alone is not enough for salvation and that works in Christ are necessary. But Saint Paul makes a point to show that “works of the law” are no longer means of justification but rather “Works of Christ” are the means of justification. For if we do Works of the Law we are keeping God in debt (God owing us) rather than Works in Christ where instead of being in debt we are rewarded.[quote][b]Romans 2:13[/b]
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52002.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52002.htm[/url][/quote]Again, if Saint Paul wished to teach faith alone he could have easily done so but didn't also to argue that this verse is proposing faith alone directly contradicts what he wrote earlier.

Edited March 28, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Budge]

Are you going to try and claim that people are saved by faith and not works in the Catholic Church?

The problem is you all dont believe Jesus finishes the job..
[b][u]
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion[/u]. [b]Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.[/b][/b]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1221327' date='Mar 28 2007, 04:32 PM']Are you going to try and claim that people are saved by faith and not works in the Catholic Church?

The problem is you all dont believe Jesus finishes the job..
[b][u]
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion[/u]. [b]Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.[/b][/b][/quote]
That's an abbreviation. It's not meant to be taken on its own.

Here's what it's referring to:

CCC 2008 - "The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit."

Our merit by itself earns nothing. Our cooperation with God's grace allows us to receive His gifts by accepting them through the act of faith.

[Mr.Cat]

Raphael, good job...

[Budge]

That still says the person isntead of God, finishes the JOB!

[N/A Gone]

Why do you use the caps?

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1221139' date='Mar 28 2007, 01:25 PM']Something about deadeth batteries?
Not falling into that one Budgie. For the 1,299,272nd time...you cannot take one verse from the Bible and build a theology around it. Gotta put it into context (both the particular book and the Bible as a whole) and remember the writer, the audience, the reason for the writing, and the culture/language/mannerisms of the time.

Sounds like yer trying to use a single verse to assert that damnable heresy of Sola Fide. Sorry. Gotta use the rest of the Bible too Budgie. Try the Epistle of James to start with...oh yeah...yer budski Luther tried to toss that one out too.... [/quote]
Agreed with that one too.

You can't create doctrine on one scripture.

That's what prosperity preachers use.

[quote name='Luke 6:38' date=' KJV']Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.[/quote]

Sounds like if you give lots of money, God is going to give you lots of money back. Awesome! Right.

Lets examine the scriptures around this one scripture.

[quote name='Luke 6:35-43' date=' KJV']But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.[/quote]

As you can see, these scriptures are about giving and recieving forgiveness and love and charity, not giving and recieving money!

So you can take an entire scripture out of context by saying - look at this one scripture.

On am I saved by works.

No, the entire bible says I am saved by grace through faith, and not by works, lest any man boast.

But because I have faith, and I am saved by grace, I can go on the attack against the minions of darkness, cast out devils and be involved with the works of my father, who is in heaven. But that doesn't save me, his grace (Unwarranted Favour - not sinlessness) saves me.

If you're going to argue with your breathern, use an entire multitude of scriptures, and pray that God show's them the truths of these scriptures.

Using one scripture to develop a doctrine is going to be rebuked by others who have a good walk with the Lord.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1221624' date='Mar 28 2007, 08:28 PM']That still says the person isntead of God, finishes the JOB![/quote]
No, it says that the entire job is done by God, with man's cooperation. That only makes sense, because God can't violate free will. Thus, naturally, any action of God must have man's cooperation. It's God's work and entirely God's work, but man cooperates in it and therefore shares the work (yet his ability to share is based on grace, so all the glory goes to God).

God finishes the job. I'm a Catholic, I'm trained in the interpretation of the Catechism, and I'm telling you what it says.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1221135' date='Mar 28 2007, 11:16 AM'][b]
[u] "But to him that worketh not[/u], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -Romans 4:5[/b][/quote]
Even though your misquoting of scripture has been explained, I'll bite.

It says only that having faith means that one has righteousness, lest I read the olde English wrongly. (which is why I don't like the KJV - old style English is so much harder to read since it isn't used anymore, and therefore much more easily misinterpreted)

What it does NOT say, yet appears as though you believe it does(which is not to say that I believe none of this, just that it cannot properly be inferred from the passage):
1.faith is all the righteousness one needs
2.works are not necessary for salvation
3.works cannot provide one with righteousness
4.righteousness is all you need to get to heaven
5.faith is all you need to get to heaven

Also to note - it does not say how much righteousness, or what kind is provided by faith. I just had the pleasure of reading Flannery O'Conner's "A Good Man is Hard to Find", and in it there is a grandmother who's faith is very strong. All through the story she talks about God and tells troubled people to ask God for help, etc, etc. However, she is completely the opitome of "holier than though". I would say that her faith has provided her with a little good righteousness, but a lot of bad righteousness (see self-righteousness). This is why I can't stand the belief of faith alone saves. People get the notion in their head that they're going to heaven just for believing, and quite often they tend to turn into self-righteous buttwipes. They are so confident in their own salvation, but unable to be so confident in anyone else's salvation (coming from the natural difficulty of seeing something from another's perspective) that they believe themselves better than others. "I know I'm going to heaven when I die, but you all better shape up" - if it gets bad enough, someone can even say something along those lines to their own preacher/priest/whatever. There's a complete lack of humility in it.

God judges us by our hearts. If we have faith for the sole reason of saving our own butts, then I think it's going to be lots of purgatory time. If we have faith because we truly love God, then it's going to be the express lane to heaven. (Hey, that sounds like a good song title - on express lane to heaven)

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1221691' date='Mar 28 2007, 11:26 PM']Agreed with that one too.

You can't create doctrine on one scripture.[/quote]

I agree too.
In fact, I agree with everything you say, friend.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b]Matthew 26:7-10[/b]
"There came to him a woman having an alabaster box of precious ointment, and poured it on his head as he was at table. And the disciples seeing it, had indignation, saying: To what purpose is this waste? For this might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. And Jesus knowing it, said to them: Why do you trouble this woman? [b][u]For she hath wrought a good work upon me[/u][/b]."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47026.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47026.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Romans 2:5-8[/b]
"But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God. [b][u]Who will render to every man according to his works[/u][/b]. To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52002.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52002.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Romans 2:13[/b]
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, [b][u]but the doers of the law shall be justified[/u][/b]."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52002.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52002.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Philippians 2:12[/b]
"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) [b]with fear and trembling [u]work[/u] out your salvation[/b]."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/57002.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/57002.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Corinthians 3:11-15[/b]
"[u]For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus[/u]. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [b]Every man's work shall be manifest[/b]; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; [u]and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is[/u]. [u]If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, [b]he shall receive a reward[/b][/u]. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53003.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53003.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Colossians 1:10[/b]
"That you may walk worthy of God, in all things pleasing; [b]being fruitful in every [u]good work[/u][/b], and increasing in the knowledge of God:"
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/58001.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/58001.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]1 Thessalonians 1:3[/b]
"[u]Being mindful of the [b]work of your faith[/b][/u], and labour, and charity, and of the enduring of the hope of our Lord Jesus Christ before God and our Father:"
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/59001.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/59001.htm[/url][/quote]