Views On Protestants And Catholics

[hoosieranna]

[quote name='Pia' post='1231844' date='Apr 5 2007, 09:47 PM']I don't get the Protestant thing about long sermons. I've only been to weddings and funerals but the sermons at the funerals seem creepy to me. Like trying to scare the mourners.[/quote]

Try listening to them every Sunday for years. It gets monotonous and loses meaning. I went for the songs anyway.

[Maggyie]

Hmm, I think one of the major preconceptions is that Protestant preaching is great while Catholic priests can't preach at all. It's true that in general, Protestantism seems to turn out charismatic, effective preachers, since the leader's personal exegesis of Scripture is often the major part of their worship services. In the Mass, the preaching takes a back seat to the proclamation of the Word and the celebration of the Eucharist. But in my experience I have seen some awesome Catholic priest-preachers as well!

[MIKolbe]

Here is an interesting article by Mark Shea. It does not encompass the fullness of your question, but it still shows some interesting differences on the whole...


[color="#2F4F4F"]Masculine and Feminine, Evangelical and Catholic

In a mathematically perfect world, conversation between Catholics and Evangelicals would be conducted on the level of pure theology and many misunderstandings would instantly be clarified:

Evangelical: [Stirs sugar into teacup] Tell me, Friend Catholic, what your understanding is of the place of Mary in the economy of salvation? It would appear (though I could be wrong) that you worship her in some way. How do you reconcile this with the biblical witness that God alone is to be worshiped? [Offers teacup to Catholic. Begins pouring his own cup and nodding in profound listening attentiveness throughout following speech.]

Catholic: [Takes teacup. Sips thoughtfully.] Actually, Friend Evangelical, Catholics do not worship Mary. They instead accord her the highest honor due a mere creature (hyperdulia) while according God latria, the worship due to God alone. This is not strange, since we all know what it is to honor a creature (such as our mother on Mother's Day) without honoring that creature to the same degree as God. Honor is, after all, a species of love and we know from the lips of Jesus himself that, so far from insulting God, it is an act of love to God to love our neighbor. Therefore, honoring Mary with hyperdulia is, in fact, an act of love which redounds to God's glory.

Evangelical: [Sips tea thoughtfully, nodding.] Ah! I see. Lucidly spoken! I agree completely. Now, with respect to transubstantiation, I have the following inquiry...

Unfortunately, this is not usually the way conversation begins. I know this from experience, since I used to be an Evangelical. Here's what really happens:

You walk into a Catholic Church and over there is a statue of Mary with some sort of gaudy crown on it. Meanwhile, over here there's a bunch of people in the front row, and they're praying the Rosary (ten to one ratio of Mary to Our Father prayers, you notice). You've got pictures, statues, icons and lots of stuff that you look at. Same when you go into a Catholic home and there is art on the walls featuring Our Lady of the Streets or some other Marian image or statue. If the family is devout, they're praying the Rosary again, often without explaining what they are doing. If they are like many Catholics, the faith is a mixture of old catechesis and affectionate folk piety ("Padre Pio used to tell that story about how when Jesus closed the door to heaven, Mama Mary would let sinners in through the back window.") And that's your first impression. That's what you start with as an Evangelical. So an Evangelical, not unreasonably, says, "There just seems to be a lot of emphasis on Mary." But because the emphasis is not contextualized (i.e., nobody is there to tell the Evangelical what exactly is going on and rare is the parish where somebody clearly articulates it) the Evangelical is more or less in the position of an archaeologist trying to reconstruct a forgotten civilization from the statues left behind while not being able to read the language. Not surprisingly, he concludes the statues or the people they represent are being worshiped.

All this is very funny for educated Catholics, who speak the mysterious hieroglyphic language called "Tradition" the Evangelical is struggling to decode. And sometimes, humorous things result from the miscommunication. For instance, I was on an internet list group one time when an angry young Fundamentalist wrote in and said, "Why is it you guys worship statues!?" A very droll deacon wrote back to him and said, "Oh, we don't worship statues anymore, now we worship banners."

However, as tempting as it is to reply like this, it is also vital to note that, for the Evangelical, it's a live question precisely because what you are often dealing with is not a theological treatise but a set of first impressions tangled, not merely with theological but with cultural differences.

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Imagine yourself opening up some Catholic magazine or turning on some Catholic program and seeing an ad with language like this (spoken with a distinct Southern accent):

"Support John Paul II Ministries! Marching out in the power in the Spirit to claim victory over the powers of Hell! Anointed! Dynamic! Making an impact on this generation for Jesus Christ!!"

Doesn't sound very Catholic does it? But stop. Is there, in fact, anything in the description of our mission as Catholics that's fundamentally at odds with that kind of language? No. Not a thing. We are, in fact, called to claim victory over hell by the power of the Spirit. We have been anointed in baptism and confirmation. We are called to dynamically bear witness to Christ and to "renew the face of the earth" through the Holy Spirit.

Yet you still associate such language with the 700 Club, don't you?

Now let's try another thought experiment. You flip on your TV to the 700 Club or TBN and you see an ad there as a woman with an English accent intones, "Read The Inner Way of Silence, and allow God to invite you to enter more deeply the path of contemplation. Experience sanctity as a fruit of dialogue with the Holy Spirit. Practice the presence of God and open yourself to the gentle prompting of the Spirit by saying, as Mary did, 'I am the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy will.' Allow the Spirit to breathe into your quiet reflection on the work of God in Scripture and Creation. Let God breathe forth in you, as in Mary's womb, the Christ who comes to us in prayer and mystery."

Again, is there anything in this that's not biblical? Not a thing. And yet you'd never hear such an ad on the 700 Club or some other Evangelical show. Why not?

Because the language is feminine and Evangelical culture tends to be overwhelmingly masculine. Conversely, Catholic culture tends to be overwhelmingly feminine. And the two cultures often mistake their cultural differences for theological ones. The Catholic approach to God tends to be feminine, body centered, Eucharistic, and contemplative. Prayer, in such a culture, is primarily for seeking union with God. Evangelical approaches to God tend to be masculine, centered on Scripture, centered on mission, and on the Spirit working in power. Prayer, in such a culture, is primarily for getting things done. Neither of these ways of approach are wrong. Both of these are legitimate Christian ways of approaching the Gospel. Indeed, both of them are, or should be, part of the Catholic way of approaching the Gospel.

But, largely because we don't recognize that they are cultural differences, these ways of approach often constitute a collision point between Evangelicals and Catholics. Take, for instance, the different approaches to prayer. The Feminine Spirituality of the Catholic tends to see the Evangelical approach to prayer as rather shallow and utilitarian. Prayer to get things done looks like prayer which uses God as a means to an end. Meanwhile, Catholic piety tends to be seen by Evangelicals as a cold inwardness cut off from "real life." Thus, Evangelicals frequently criticize the Catholic monastery for its "retreat from reality behind the walls of the cloister", praying piously while the world is going to hell in a handbasket. The Catholic who is tempted to pass judgement needs to be reminded that prayer for daily bread is encouraged by our Lord. The Evangelical who is tempted to pass judgment needs to be reminded that Jesus went into the desert to pray and seek union with the Father. Both are legitimate forms of prayer.

Such collision points represent an opportunity and a challenge. The Catholic response to this challenge is straightforward, we must be the first to do what Catholic faith does so well: embrace the Catholic Both/And so that Evangelical masculine piety is again embraced and honored in a healthy way. And I am convinced this is happening. That's why so many cradle Catholics are responding to the wave of Evangelical converts who have poured into the Church in the past 15 years. The Catholic faith is ripe for a renewal of, so to speak, masculine piety. But, by the same token (and I speak here as a "completed Evangelical" myself), Evangelicals both inside and outside the Catholic communion must also face facts: the feminine way has been too long denied and denigrated by us. We must find a way to integrate it back into our spiritual lives if we are to fully grasp the gift Christ has won for us. It was on many levels that Jesus spoke when, as his dying act, he gave us a Mother. We have feared the Blessed Virgin, Holy Mother Church, all that is feminine, for far too long.

In sum, Jesus made us, his "beloved disciples" the children of a Heavenly Father, but also of his Mother. We have lived with the division long enough. It is time once again for all Christians to honor our Father and our Mother.

Copyright 2002 - Mark P. Shea[/color]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1232271' date='Apr 6 2007, 12:42 PM']Here is something I doubt you would hear most protestants say:

Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's laughter, cheer, and good red wine;
At least I have always found it so--
Benedicamos Domino!
--Hillaire Belloc[/quote]

Cmom, that is a great quote... I was looking for that one (was actually going to submit it as my yearbook quote. Alas, I could not find it before the deadline. MIkolbe, that is a great article. There is a lot of great humour spots in there... especially "the world is going to hell in a handbasket" . Thanks for that one

[Era Might]

[quote]Common roots and similar, if distinct, considerations have guided the development in the West of the Catholic Church and of the Churches and Communities which have their origins in the Reformation. Consequently these share the fact that they are "Western" in character. Their "diversities", although significant as has been pointed out, do not therefore preclude mutual interaction and complementarity.

The ecumenical movement really began within the Churches and Ecclesial Communities of the Reform. At about the same time, in January, 1920, the Ecumenical Patriarchate expressed the hope that some kind of cooperation among the Christian Communions could be organized. This fact shows that the weight of cultural background is not the decisive factor. What is essential is the question of faith. The prayer of Christ, our one Lord, Redeemer and Master, speaks to everyone in the same way, both in the East and in the West. That prayer becomes an imperative to leave behind our divisions in order to seek and re-establish unity, as a result also of the bitter experiences of division itself.

The Second Vatican Council did not attempt to give a "description" of post-Reformation Christianity, since "in origin, teaching and spiritual practice, these Churches and Ecclesial Communities differ not only from us but also among themselves to a considerable degree". Furthermore, the Decree observes that the ecumenical movement and the desire for peace with the Catholic Church have not yet taken root everywhere. These circumstances notwithstanding, the Council calls for dialogue.

The Council Decree then seeks to "propose ... some considerations which can and ought to serve as a basis and motivation for such dialogue".

"Our thoughts are concerned ... with those Christians who openly confess Jesus Christ as God and Lord and as the sole Mediator between God and man unto the glory of the one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit".

These brothers and sisters promote love and veneration for the Sacred Scriptures: "Calling upon the Holy Spirit, they seek in these Sacred Scriptures God as he speaks to them in Christ, the One whom the prophets foretold, God's Word made flesh for us. In the Scriptures they contemplate the life of Christ, as well as the teachings and the actions of the Divine Master on behalf of the salvation of all, in particular the mysteries of his Death and Resurrection ... They affirm the divine authority of the Sacred Books".

At the same time, however, they "think differently from us ... about the relationship between the Scriptures and the Church. In the Church, according to Catholic belief, an authentic teaching office plays a special role in the explanation and proclamation of the written word of God". Even so, "in 1 dialogue itself, the sacred utterances are precious instruments in the mighty hand of God for attaining that unity which the Saviour holds out to all".

Furthermore, the Sacrament of Baptism, which we have in common, represents "a sacramental bond of unity linking all who have been reborn by means of it".118 The theological, pastoral and ecumenical implications of our common Baptism are many and important. Although this sacrament of itself is "only a beginning, a point of departure", it is "oriented towards a complete profession of faith, a complete incorporation into the system of salvation such as Christ himself willed it to be, and finally, towards a complete participation in Eucharistic communion".

Doctrinal and historical disagreements at the time of the Reformation emerged with regard to the Church, the sacraments and the ordained ministry. The Council therefore calls for "dialogue to be undertaken concerning the true meaning of the Lord's Supper, the other sacraments and the Church's worship and ministry".

The Decree Unitatis Redintegratio, pointing out that the post-Reformation Communities lack that "fullness of unity with us which should flow from Baptism", observes that "especially because of the lack of the Sacrament of Orders they have not preserved the genuine and total reality of the Eucharistic mystery", even though "when they commemorate the Lord's Death and Resurrection in the Holy Supper, they profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and they await his coming in glory".

The Decree does not overlook the spiritual life and its moral consequences: "The Christian way of life of these brethren is nourished by faith in Christ. It is strengthened by the grace of Baptism and the hearing of God's Word. This way of life expresses itself in private prayer, in meditation on the Bible, in Christian family life, and in services of worship offered by Communities assembled to praise God. Furthermore, their worship sometimes displays notable features of the ancient, common liturgy".

The Council document moreover does not limit itself to these spiritual, moral and cultural aspects but extends its appreciation to the lively sense of justice and to the sincere charity towards others which are present among these brothers and sisters. Nor does it overlook their efforts to make social conditions more humane and to promote peace. All this is the result of a sincere desire to be faithful to the Word of Christ as the source of Christian life.

The text thus raises a series of questions which, in the area of ethics and morality, is becoming ever more urgent in our time: "There are many Christians who do not always understand the Gospel in the same way as Catholics". In this vast area there is much room for dialogue concerning the moral principles of the Gospel and their implications.

The hopes and invitation expressed by the Second Vatican Council have been acted upon, and bilateral theological dialogue with the various worldwide Churches and Christian Communities in the West has been progressively set in motion.

Moreover, with regard to multilateral dialogue, as early as 1964 the process of setting up a "Joint Working Group" with the World Council of Churches was begun, and since 1968 Catholic theologians have been admitted as full members of the theological Department of the Council, the Commission on Faith and Order.

This dialogue has been and continues to be fruitful and full of promise. The topics suggested by the Council Decree have already been addressed, or will be in the near future. The reflections of the various bilateral dialogues, conducted with a dedication which deserves the praise of all those committed to ecumenism, have concentrated on many disputed questions such as Baptism, the Eucharist, the ordained ministry, the sacramentality and authority of the Church and apostolic succession. As a result, unexpected possibilities for resolving these questions have come to light, while at the same time there has been a realization that certain questions need to be studied more deeply.

This difficult and delicate research, which involves questions of faith and respect for one's own conscience as well as for the consciences of others, has been accompanied and sustained by the prayer of the Catholic Church and of the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities. Prayer for unity, already so deeply rooted in and spread throughout the body of the Church, shows that Christians do indeed see the importance of ecumenism. Precisely because the search for full unity requires believers to question one another in relation to their faith in the one Lord, prayer is the source of enlightenment concerning the truth which has to be accepted in its entirety.

Moreover, through prayer the quest for unity, far from being limited to a group of specialists, comes to be shared by all the baptized. Everyone, regardless of their role in the Church or level of education, can make a valuable contribution, in a hidden and profound way.

--Pope John Paul II, Encyclical Letter "Ut Unum Sint"[/quote]

[-I---Love]

MIkolbe - where'd u find the Mark Shea article? - that was great, I was hoping the whole article would continue like that - a great idea for a book!