Fires Of Hell And Of Purgatory

[Hirsap]

Vote!

I would be cautious to apply a merely figurative interpretation to the fires of hell, due to the opinion of great theologians affirming it (such as Saint Thomas Aquinas, Saint Alphonsus Liguori), not to mention the existence of many accounts of people attesting to their damned state. Pastorally speaking, it can help as a sure motivator for people to live right!

As for Purgatory, I am unsure. I believe there to be some kind of fire, perhaps of an extraordinary quality, which purges the soul.

[prose]

I heard something interesting about this once. A priest was talking about how, when missionaries came to Canada they had a very hard time explaining Hell because Fire was such a good thing here that it didn't make sense as a form of punishment.

[Paladin]

When you're talking about Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven, you have to make a distinction between[i] literal [/i]and [i]physical[/i]. These are places on a non-physical plane, so physical things like fire don't exist. But, they are still [i]real[/i], if not more real than the physical, because the fires of Purgatory really do purify the soul.

[url="http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/04/the_nature_of_h.html"]Jimmy makes more sense of it[/url] than I do.

[Templari]

[quote name='Paladin' post='1234904' date='Apr 8 2007, 11:11 AM']When you're talking about Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven, you have to make a distinction between[i] literal [/i]and [i]physical[/i]. These are places on a non-physical plane, so physical things like fire don't exist. But, they are still [i]real[/i], if not more real than the physical, because the fires of Purgatory really do purify the soul.

[url="http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/04/the_nature_of_h.html"]Jimmy makes more sense of it[/url] than I do.[/quote]

When my Physical body resurects on the last day, then i hope that will be going to a physical heaven, because it is either that, or a physical hell.

Now, Dante is not a theologian but his view of hell in his "Inferno" is quite a good idea. Depending on your sins you are in a different level of hell, and you will be punished according to your sins. So there will be fire(literal physical fire) in some levels but other tortures in other levels.

But from the day we die, until the last day, from my understanding, then we will be only spiritual beings so hell will have only "spiritual" fires, whatever that is.

{edit} because our bodies are not returned until General judgement on the last day, i would assume purgatory would have "spiritual fire" only.

Edited April 8, 2007 by Templari

[Paladin]

[quote name='Templari' post='1234999' date='Apr 8 2007, 01:59 PM']When my Physical body resurects on the last day, then i hope that will be going to a physical heaven, because it is either that, or a physical hell.

Now, Dante is not a theologian but his view of hell in his "Inferno" is quite a good idea. Depending on your sins you are in a different level of hell, and you will be punished according to your sins. So there will be fire(literal physical fire) in some levels but other tortures in other levels.

But from the day we die, until the last day, from my understanding, then we will be only spiritual beings so hell will have only "spiritual" fires, whatever that is.

{edit} because our bodies are not returned until General judgement on the last day, i would assume purgatory would have "spiritual fire" only.[/quote]
True enough, friend. We will get our perfect physical bodies again, and they will be subject to the effects of damnation and salvation.

I wonder, Hirsap: is your question relating to the souls in Hell and Purgatory before the Resurrection, after, or in general?

[Templari]

[quote name='Paladin' post='1235140' date='Apr 8 2007, 02:44 PM']I wonder, Hirsap: is your question relating to the souls in Hell and Purgatory before the Resurrection, after, or in general?[/quote]
is there purgatory after the resurrection? I don't even know that.

[jeffpugh]

Seriously, I have to agree with you people... the choices for the voting were not what I wanted though...

[Templari]

haha i didn't even vote

[Katholikos]

Papa knows best. Here's what John Paul the Great had to say about heaven, hell, and Purgatory. Now, his vote counts!

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM[/url]

[Laudate_Dominum]

I believe in the pain of loss (poena damni) and the pain of sense (poena sensus) so I do not understand the fires of hell to be merely a metaphor of the pain of loss. However, I don't imagine hell to literally be a big bonfire some place so I am not a literalist in that sense. I simply affirm that the image of fire is probably the best analogy from our experience for what hell must be like in its physical aspect.

If it turns out that hell is in fact a place with a big bonfire I will gladly stand corrected. I just tend to assume that the hereafter is not entirely understandable based on our experience of this world.

I think what JP2 was trying to do was really highlight the fact that hell is essentially the pain of loss. This has always been the teaching of the Church anyway so I don't understand why his talks were so "controversial".

[Hirsap]

[quote name='Paladin' post='1235140' date='Apr 9 2007, 06:44 AM']True enough, friend. We will get our perfect physical bodies again, and they will be subject to the effects of damnation and salvation.

I wonder, Hirsap: is your question relating to the souls in Hell and Purgatory before the Resurrection, after, or in general?[/quote]

In general; or rather, there are two questions I am posing in a sense; the reality of the fire prior to the Resurrection as compared with after.

[Templari]

[quote name='Hirsap' post='1235717' date='Apr 8 2007, 10:26 PM']In general; or rather, there are two questions I am posing in a sense; the reality of the fire prior to the Resurrection as compared with after.[/quote]
ok im gunna say no physical fire before resurection, possibly, perhaps likely after.

[Aloysius]

there is no purgatory after the final judgment

there will be hell, from its lowest levels to limbo (which is merely the edge of hell, the lowest level of punishment, whatever its nature may be is debatable), and the people in hell will have their bodies restored and therefore their bodies will be subject to punishment; fire is what the Bible says about that so it must be physical fire, because it has to be a physical punishment once they have their bodies restored. but until then, the pain of sense is like fire; and that same pain of sense like fire is felt by those in purgatory; because the "fire" that is causing that is the Justice of God and both the souls in hell and the souls in purgatory are subjected to the same Justice of God and thus feel the same sensory punishment. But there will never be a purgatory of literal fire, because the resurrection of the body (and thus the restoration of perfect justice and perfection to the physical world) will mark the end of time and the end of purgatory; all will then reach final purification or final damnation.

[thessalonian]

I have to think that it is both physical (literal) and a spiritual understanding of the word fire. One does not mean the other cannot be true. As has been pointed out, the fact that our bodies will be in hell after the resurrection if we don't go to heaven indicates a literal fire. But certainly this is suffering for those in the spirit before the resurrection and this must be a spiritual fire. Therefore both I think is the best answer. But it's not on the choices so I did not vote.

[Era Might]

Our Lord speaks of many mansions in Heaven. Will we literally live in mansions? I don't know, but I think the essential point is not whether the imagery is literal or not, but rather what it means.

[N/A Gone]

L_D...great job, I was highly influenced by JP Morelands understanding of hell as a protestant, i still hold to much of that.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1236479' date='Apr 9 2007, 06:00 PM']I have to think that it is both physical (literal) and a spiritual understanding of the word fire. One does not mean the other cannot be true. As has been pointed out, the fact that our bodies will be in hell after the resurrection if we don't go to heaven indicates a literal fire. But certainly this is suffering for those in the spirit before the resurrection and this must be a spiritual fire. Therefore both I think is the best answer. But it's not on the choices so I did not vote.[/quote]
it's a multiple choice poll... one of the cool new pheatures of the new phorum. you can select both.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1237047' date='Apr 9 2007, 10:38 PM']it's a multiple choice poll... one of the cool new pheatures of the new phorum. you can select both.[/quote]


That's nice and I did not know it but I still won't vote, as that would put my vote for both with the vote of those who voted for each separately. Two separate choices (either/or) is not the same as a both/and. I find most things in Catholicism are both/and.

[RezaMikhaeil]

In the East, Orthodox put more emphisis on hell being a state of mind, then an actual physical destination. People can be in hell right here on earth, be so low that burning their actual flesh, wouldn't be no difference.

I'd once heard someone say that: God doesn't send man to hell, man chooses to go... after this life, God gives man over to the desires in his heart, if he hates God then why would God torment him by sending him to heaven? Rather God loves him more then enough to give him what his heart desires.

There are some that even believe that those that are "in hell" are in the presence of God, and that his love is so powerful and immaculate, that those that don't love him, are tormented by his Love, therefore hell isn't nessessarily a physical destination as a spiritual condition.

Reza

[desertwoman]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1238784' date='Apr 11 2007, 01:47 PM']In the East, Orthodox put more emphisis on hell being a state of mind, then an actual physical destination. People can be in hell right here on earth, be so low that burning their actual flesh, wouldn't be no difference.

I'd once heard someone say that: God doesn't send man to hell, man chooses to go... after this life, God gives man over to the desires in his heart, if he hates God then why would God torment him by sending him to heaven? Rather God loves him more then enough to give him what his heart desires.

There are some that even believe that those that are "in hell" are in the presence of God, and that his love is so powerful and immaculate, that those that don't love him, are tormented by his Love, therefore hell isn't nessessarily a physical destination as a spiritual condition.

Reza[/quote]