Pope: 'nothing Positive From Iraq'

[ThomasDM]

[i]VATICAN CITY Apr 8, 2007 (AP)— In an Easter litany of the world's suffering, Pope Benedict XVI lamented that "nothing positive" is happening in Iraq and decried the unrest in Afghanistan and bloodshed in Africa and Asia.[/i]

[url="http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3020289"]http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3020289[/url]

And to achieve this stalemate over 65, 000 [url="http://www.iraqbodycount.org/"][source][/url] of God's children had to die during the conflict initiated by the West. And that 65, 000 + is referring to civilians. Unarmed, afraid, trying to take shelter from the bombs. Meanwhile, because of our economic system, people here were making money off those very bombs. It saddens me greatly to see teachings of Christ taken so lightly. This isn't a matter of Left Wing versus Right Wing - partisan politics has nothing to do with this. It isn't a matter of how many deaths there was in Iraq compared to the number of abortions...we should lessen all suffering everywhere - it is not our place to judge who is fit to live and who isn't. It isn't our place to start a war of aggression and play vigilante - killing 65, 000 people to get to one man who killed a fraction of that - and kill him too . It's a matter of right versus wrong, and those 65, 000 were wrongful deaths. Each and every one of them.

Perhaps it is time to bow our heads and pray for forgiveness over our handling of the situation, over our short sightedness in the face of much evidence, over the blood lust and chest thumping that lead to the deaths of all those innocent children of God.

The Pope has expressed dismay at this situation.

As someone who sort of supported the so called 'War on Terror' in the beginning I now hang my head in shame, and ask for forgiveness. I've learned my lesson...never again will I condone any war of aggression whatsoever. Never again will I forget about the lives of the very real people in the nations that our leaders push to attack for profit, or a violent and ethnocentric ideal spelled out in 'The New American Century' texts.

Never again will I accept or stand idly by while professed followers of Christ twist or ignore his teachings to their own agenda, murder a foreign peoples, and then profit from it with no bid contracts, overcharging tax payers etc.

I've opened my eyes now and I see that there are so many things that we could be doing so much better on this earth. Currently because of global warming an unprecedented number of species are threatened with extinction. Our greedy ways threaten the very planet that was provided to us by our Creator. [If you would like to argue against the Global Warming point, please feel free to publish any conflicting 'evidence' in a peer reviewed scientific journal where the data can be scrutinized, and replicated to test its integrity - because there hasn't been such an article disputing global warming printed in such a journal in the last ten years. The facts are solidifying at an every increasing rate.]

There are so many important things to deal with right now, we have to stop making this an issue of Left versus Right, Democrat versus Republican, Us versus Them. We have to cast aside Nationality and actually follow the teachings of Jesus when he says to love one another. We have to be so much more responsible with the planet and the resources that God gifted to us. We have to be less divisive and more careful about the whole nationalistic 'Us versus Them' ideology. It only hurts us and others.

I've changed my mind on so many things recently. I stand behind the pope when he deplores the conflict and aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan. I now see many companies making ridiculous amounts of money off the very weapons that we use on our international neighbors - most of them innocent bystanders.

I bow my head in sorrow for what aggression some of our Western countries have unleashed on the rest of the world, and I ask God for forgiveness for my previous, erroneous, and unloving support of such aggression in it's beginning stages. I put the idea of my country before the lives of some very good people, who are now lost to us.

If you are in the same boat as I, please join me in praying for an end to aggression around the world, including that of our own. Please join me in praying that we all start to treat Gods creation with the boundless respect that it deserves. Please join me in prayer and examination of the human weaknesses of greed and gluttony that have lead to an unwillingness to sacrifice a portion of our rediculously affluent way of life.

And please join me in a prayer of thanks to a God who gave us free will so that we may mend our ways, and start acting now to be more compassionate to our neighbors the world over, to put an end to our aggressive ways, and to use our reason and inference to see the facts of how our moneymaking practices and gluttony are going overboard and harming this beautiful planet. Let us use our humility to change our ways, try to live more humbly, and to do good for each other and the planet whenever the opportunity arises.

Yours in awakening.

-Thomas

Edited April 9, 2007 by ThomasDM

[Jesus_lol]

hear hear!

mixing idealism(left vs right) with what must happen is just confusing the issue to the point where nothing happens.

[RezaMikhaeil]

Who's got a full transcription of the Pope's message?

Reza

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/urbi/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20070408_urbi-easter_en.html"]URBI ET ORBI MESSAGE[/url]
OF HIS HOLINESS
POPE BENEDICT XVI

EASTER 2007



Dear Brothers and Sisters throughout the world,
Men and women of good will!

Christ is risen! Peace to you! Today we celebrate the great mystery, the foundation of Christian faith and hope: Jesus of Nazareth, the Crucified One, has risen from the dead on the third day according to the Scriptures. We listen today with renewed emotion to the announcement proclaimed by the angels on the dawn of the first day after the Sabbath, to Mary of Magdala and to the women at the sepulchre: “Why do you search among the dead for one who is alive? He is not here, he is risen!” (Lk 24:5-6).

It is not difficult to imagine the feelings of these women at that moment: feelings of sadness and dismay at the death of their Lord, feelings of disbelief and amazement before a fact too astonishing to be true. But the tomb was open and empty: the body was no longer there. Peter and John, having been informed of this by the women, ran to the sepulchre and found that they were right. The faith of the Apostles in Jesus, the expected Messiah, had been submitted to a severe trial by the scandal of the cross. At his arrest, his condemnation and death, they were dispersed. Now they are together again, perplexed and bewildered. But the Risen One himself comes in response to their thirst for greater certainty. This encounter was not a dream or an illusion or a subjective imagination; it was a real experience, even if unexpected, and all the more striking for that reason. “Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, ‘peace be with you!’” (Jn 20:19).

At these words their faith, which was almost spent within them, was re-kindled. The Apostles told Thomas who had been absent from that first extraordinary encounter: Yes, the Lord has fulfilled all that he foretold; he is truly risen and we have seen and touched him! Thomas however remained doubtful and perplexed. When Jesus came for a second time, eight days later in the Upper Room, he said to him: “put your finger here and see my hands; and put out your hand and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing!” The Apostle’s response is a moving profession of faith: “My Lord and my God!” (Jn 20:27-28).

“My Lord and my God!” We too renew that profession of faith of Thomas. I have chosen these words for my Easter greetings this year, because humanity today expects from Christians a renewed witness to the resurrection of Christ; it needs to encounter him and to know him as true God and true man. If we can recognize in this Apostle the doubts and uncertainties of so many Christians today, the fears and disappointments of many of our contemporaries, with him we can also rediscover with renewed conviction, faith in Christ dead and risen for us. This faith, handed down through the centuries by the successors of the Apostles, continues on because the Risen Lord dies no more. He lives in the Church and guides it firmly towards the fulfilment of his eternal design of salvation.

We may all be tempted by the disbelief of Thomas. Suffering, evil, injustice, death, especially when it strikes the innocent such as children who are victims of war and terrorism, of sickness and hunger, does not all of this put our faith to the test? Paradoxically the disbelief of Thomas is most valuable to us in these cases because it helps to purify all false concepts of God and leads us to discover his true face: the face of a God who, in Christ, has taken upon himself the wounds of injured humanity. Thomas has received from the Lord, and has in turn transmitted to the Church, the gift of a faith put to the test by the passion and death of Jesus and confirmed by meeting him risen. His faith was almost dead but was born again thanks to his touching the wounds of Christ, those wounds that the Risen One did not hide but showed, and continues to point out to us in the trials and sufferings of every human being.

“By his wounds you have been healed” (1 Pt 2:24). This is the message Peter addressed to the early converts. Those wounds that, in the beginning were an obstacle for Thomas’s faith, being a sign of Jesus’ apparent failure, those same wounds have become in his encounter with the Risen One, signs of a victorious love. These wounds that Christ has received for love of us help us to understand who God is and to repeat: “My Lord and my God!” Only a God who loves us to the extent of taking upon himself our wounds and our pain, especially innocent suffering, is worthy of faith.

How many wounds, how much suffering there is in the world! Natural calamities and human tragedies that cause innumerable victims and enormous material destruction are not lacking. My thoughts go to recent events in Madagascar, in the Solomon Islands, in Latin America and in other regions of the world. I am thinking of the scourge of hunger, of incurable diseases, of terrorism and kidnapping of people, of the thousand faces of violence which some people attempt to justify in the name of religion, of contempt for life, of the violation of human rights and the exploitation of persons. I look with apprehension at the conditions prevailing in several regions of Africa. In Darfur and in the neighbouring countries there is a catastrophic, and sadly to say underestimated, humanitarian situation. In Kinshasa in the Democratic Republic of the Congo the violence and looting of the past weeks raises fears for the future of the Congolese democratic process and the reconstruction of the country. In Somalia the renewed fighting has driven away the prospect of peace and worsened a regional crisis, especially with regard to the displacement of populations and the traffic of arms. Zimbabwe is in the grip of a grievous crisis and for this reason the Bishops of that country in a recent document indicated prayer and a shared commitment for the common good as the only way forward.

Likewise the population of East Timor stands in need of reconciliation and peace as it prepares to hold important elections. Elsewhere too, peace is sorely needed: in Sri Lanka only a negotiated solution can put an end to the conflict that causes so much bloodshed; Afghanistan is marked by growing unrest and instability; In the Middle East, besides some signs of hope in the dialogue between Israel and the Palestinian authority, nothing positive comes from Iraq, torn apart by continual slaughter as the civil population flees. In Lebanon the paralysis of the country’s political institutions threatens the role that the country is called to play in the Middle East and puts its future seriously in jeopardy. Finally, I cannot forget the difficulties faced daily by the Christian communities and the exodus of Christians from that blessed Land which is the cradle of our faith. I affectionately renew to these populations the expression of my spiritual closeness.

Dear Brothers and sisters, through the wounds of the Risen Christ we can see the evils which afflict humanity with the eyes of hope. In fact, by his rising the Lord has not taken away suffering and evil from the world but has vanquished them at their roots by the superabundance of his grace. He has countered the arrogance of evil with the supremacy of his love. He has left us the love that does not fear death, as the way to peace and joy. “Even as I have loved you – he said to his disciples before his death – so you must also love one another” (cf. Jn 13:34).

Brothers and sisters in faith, who are listening to me from every part of the world! Christ is risen and he is alive among us. It is he who is the hope of a better future. As we say with Thomas: “My Lord and my God!”, may we hear again in our hearts the beautiful yet demanding words of the Lord: “If any one serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there shall my servant be also; if any one serves me, the Father will honour him” (Jn 12:26). United to him and ready to offer our lives for our brothers (cf. 1 Jn 3:16), let us become apostles of peace, messengers of a joy that does not fear pain – the joy of the Resurrection. May Mary, Mother of the Risen Christ, obtain for us this Easter gift. Happy Easter to you all.

[Ash Wednesday]

Hi Thomas, pleased to meet you my friend.

This is going to be an interesting thread.


I wrestle with the application of the Catholic Just War doctrine, myself. I never agreed with the way we went into Iraq in the way we did, even if someone looks at it from a more hawkish perspective and less of a strict pacifist perspective -- I think it was a strategic blunder. (I cringe when I say that because I think of John Kerry saying the same thing with his droning voice.)

Though the pope is decrying the state the world as a result of war, including Iraq, I think he does recognize that matters of war and its consequences are not always simple, and I think often people tend to twist around papal statements to equate a strict pacifist stance, not just the press but even people from within the Vatican. I really don't view the war on terror or people's decision to support it to be necessarily something done out of greed. Perhaps in the case of some, but not all. As I said before, I wrestle with this quite a bit.

War is always a tragedy. As Christians we cannot read the news and NOT see Christ suffering in the world as a result of war, and war must never be taken lightly and engaged in without fully considering all potential consequences. On the other hand, when I think of strict pacifism in the face of what we are dealing with, I think of Theo Van Gogh pleading for mercy and trying to reason with his killer before the radical muslim shot him eight times, slit his throat, and left him lying on the streets of Amsterdam impaled with two knives, one attaching a five page note.

One thing I find really unsettling, and this touches not only on sociopolitical consequences but spiritual as well -- is the fact that in the west, so many of us don't know what to believe in, with no sense of purpose -- meanwhile on the other side of the world you have people willing to die for what they believe in, as twisted as it is. It's really ironic to compare the reasonings behind the suicides of an American to those of a Palestinian.

Edited April 9, 2007 by Ash Wednesday

[KnightofChrist]

"Nothing positive" is obviously not to be taken absolutely...

List of Positives in Iraq

- Over 400,000 kids have had up-to-date immunizations.

- School attendance is up 80 percent from levels before the war.

- Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.

- The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.

- The country had its first $2 billion-barrel export of oil in August.

- Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.

- The country now receives two times the electrical power it did before the war.

- 100 percent of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35 percent before the war.

- Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.

- Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.

- Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.

- Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.

- Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with U.S. soldiers.

- Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.

- Students are taught field sanitation and hand-washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.

- An interim constitution has been signed.

- Girls are allowed to attend school.

- Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.


[url="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051207.html"]Fact Sheet: Rebuilding Iraq [/url]

To Defeat The Enemy, The United States Is Helping Iraqis Rebuild. Over the course of this war, the Coalition has learned that winning the battle for Iraqi cities is only a first step. The Coalition has adjusted to win the "battle after the battle" by helping Iraqis consolidate their gains and keep the terrorists from returning.

* Iraqi Forces Are Securing Cities, Allowing For Targeted Reconstruction. As steady training produces more capable Iraqi Security Forces, those forces have been able to better hold onto the cities Iraqi and Coalition forces cleared together. With help from Coalition military and civilian personnel, the Iraqi government can then work with local leaders and residents to begin reconstruction - with Iraqis leading the building efforts and the Coalition playing a supporting role. This approach is working in cities like Najaf and Mosul.

* Iraqi And Coalition Forces Have Cleared And Are Holding The City Of Najaf. Ninety miles south of Baghdad, Najaf is home to one of Shia Islam's holiest places - the Imam Ali Shrine. As a predominantly Shia city, Najaf suffered greatly during Saddam's regime. About a year after U.S. troops liberated the city, it fell under the sway of a radical and violent militia. Fighting damaged homes and businesses, and the local economy collapsed as visitors and pilgrims stopped coming to the shrine out of fear for their lives. In the summer of 2004, the Iraqi government and Coalition decided to retake control of the city. Iraqi and Coalition forces rooted out the militia in tough, urban fighting. Together with the Iraqi government and the Shia clerical community, we forced the militia to abandon the shrine and return it to legitimate Iraqi authority. The militia committed to disarm and leave Najaf.

o As Soon As The Fighting In Najaf Ended, Targeted Reconstruction Moved Forward. The Iraqi government played an active role, and so did our military commanders, diplomats, and workers from the U.S. Agency for International Development. Together, they worked with Najaf's governor and other local officials to rebuild the local police force, repair residents' homes, refurbish schools, restore water and other essential services, and reopen a soccer stadium. Fifteen months later, new businesses and markets have opened in some of Najaf's poorest areas, religious pilgrims are visiting the city again, and construction jobs are putting local residents back to work. One of the largest projects was the rebuilding of the Najaf Teaching Hospital, which had been looted and turned into a military fortress by the militia. Thanks to efforts by Iraqi doctors and local leaders, with the help of American personnel, the hospital is now open and capable of serving hundreds of patients each day.

o Najaf Has Made Tremendous Progress. Najaf is now in the hands of elected government officials. An elected provincial council is at work drafting plans to bring more tourism and commerce to the city. Political life has returned, and campaigns for the upcoming elections have begun, with different parties competing for votes. The Iraqi police are now responsible for day-to-day security. An Iraqi battalion has assumed control of the former American military base, and American forces are now about 40 minutes outside the city. There is still plenty of work to be done. Sustaining electric power remains a major challenge, and construction has begun on three new substations to help boost capacity. To address a clean water shortage, new water treatment and sewage units are being installed. Security has improved dramatically, but threats remain. Local leaders and Iraqi Security Forces are working to resolve these problems - and Americans are helping.

* Iraqi And American Forces Have Cleared And Are Holding The City Of Mosul. Mosul is one of Iraq's largest cities and home to a diverse population of Sunni Arabs, Kurds, and other ethnic groups. It was here that American troops brought justice to Saddam's sons in the summer of 2003. Mosul was relatively quiet in the months after liberation, and American forces began to redeploy elsewhere in the country. Then, the enemy infiltrated the city, and by late last year, they had gained control of much of Mosul. American and Iraqi forces responded with a series of coordinated strikes on the most dangerous parts of the city and killed, captured, and cleared out many of the terrorists and Saddamists. Over time, the Iraqi police and legitimate political leaders regained control. As Iraqis have grown in strength and ability, they have taken more responsibility for the city's security, and Coalition forces have moved into a supporting role.

o After The Security Situation Improved, Reconstruction Accelerated. Local Iraqi leaders, with Coalition support, upgraded key roads and bridges over the Tigris River, rebuilt schools and hospitals, and started refurbishing the Mosul Airport. Police stations and firehouses were rebuilt, and Iraqis have made major improvements in the city's water and sewage network. But real challenges still remain. Because the city is not receiving enough electricity, Iraqis have a major new project underway to expand the Mosul power substation. Terrorist intimidation is still a concern, but turnout for the October referendum was over 50 percent in the province where Mosul is located - more than triple the turnout in the January election.

* With Progress, Serious Challenges Are Being Addressed. Corruption exists at both the national and local levels of the Iraqi government. Fraud will not be tolerated, so the American Embassy in Baghdad is helping to demand transparency and accountability for the money being invested in reconstruction. Another problem is the infiltration of militia groups into the Iraqi Security Forces - especially the Iraqi police. We are helping Iraqis deal with this problem by embedding Coalition transition teams in Iraqi units to mentor police and soldiers. In a free Iraq, former militia members must shift their loyalty to the national government and learn to operate under the rule of law.

The United States Is Working With Iraq's Leaders To Build A Sound Economy That Will Deliver A Better Life For Iraqis. Iraq is a nation with the potential for tremendous prosperity. The country has a young and educated workforce, abundant land and water, and among the largest oil resources in the world. Yet for decades, Saddam Hussein used Iraq's wealth to enrich himself and a privileged few and neglected the country's infrastructure and economy. The Coalition is helping the new Iraqi government reverse decades of economic destruction, reinvigorate its economy, and make responsible reforms. With Coalition help, the Iraqis are rebuilding infrastructure and establishing the institutions of a market economy. The entrepreneurial spirit is strong. A free Iraq will be built by the free people of Iraq - and the United States is proud to help.

* Reconstruction Efforts Are Focused On Local Projects That Deliver Rapid And Noticeable Improvements. The Coalition's approach to helping Iraqis rebuild has changed and improved with time. When the reconstruction process was first begun in the spring of 2003, the focus was on building large-scale infrastructure - such as electrical plants and water treatment facilities. This approach was not meeting the priorities of the Iraqi people. In many places, the most urgent needs were smaller, localized projects like sewer lines and city roads. In consultation with the Iraqi government, resources started to be used to fund smaller, local projects that could deliver rapid, noticeable improvements. American military commanders were given more money for flexible use, and the Coalition worked with Iraqi leaders to provide more contracts to Iraqi firms. By adapting reconstruction efforts, the United States is now better able to help Iraqi leaders serve their people.

* Together, Iraqis And Americans Are Making Progress. Reconstruction has not always gone as well as hoped - primarily because of the security challenges. Rebuilding a nation devastated by a dictator is a large undertaking - even harder when terrorists attempt to destroy gains. Yet, in the space of two and a half years, the United States has helped Iraqis conduct nearly 3,000 renovation projects at schools, train more than 30,000 teachers, distribute more than 8 million textbooks, rebuild irrigation infrastructure to help more than 400,000 rural Iraqis, and improve drinking water for more than 3 million people. The Coalition has helped Iraqis introduce a new currency, reopen their stock exchange, and extend $21 million in micro-credit and small business loans. As a result of these efforts and Iraq's newfound freedom, more than 30,000 new Iraqi businesses have registered since liberation, and according to a recent survey, more than three-quarters of Iraqi business owners anticipate growth in the economy over the next two years. This economic development and growth will be key to addressing the high unemployment rate across many parts of the country. In addition, Iraqis have negotiated significant debt relief and completed an economic report card with the International Monetary Fund - a signal that Iraqis are serious about reform.

Victory In Iraq

The United States Will Settle For Nothing Less Than Complete Victory In Iraq. Withdrawing on an artificial deadline would endanger the American people, harm our military, and make the Middle East less stable. It would also give the terrorists exactly what they want. The al-Qaida leader Zawahiri recently wrote to the terrorist Zarqawi in Iraq, and he cited the Vietnam War as a reason to believe the terrorists can prevail. The terrorists think they can make America run in Iraq; the terrorists hope America will withdraw before the job is done - so they can take over the country and turn it into a base for future attacks. America will not yield the future of Iraq to men like Zarqawi, nor will it yield the future of the Middle East to men like bin Laden.

* Building Democracy In Iraq Will Establish A Peaceful Civil Society That Is An Ally In The War On Terror. Free societies are peaceful societies, and democracies do not attack each other. Free nations give their citizens a path to resolve their differences peacefully through the democratic process. Democracy can be difficult, complicated, and even chaotic. Iraqis have to overcome many challenges, including longstanding ethnic and religious tensions, and the legacy of decades of brutal repression. But they are learning that democracy is the only way to build a just and peaceful society - because it is the only system that gives every citizen a voice in determining their future.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1235923' date='Apr 9 2007, 03:28 AM']Though the pope is decrying the state the world as a result of war, including Iraq, I think he does recognize that matters of war and its consequences are not always simple, and I think often people tend to twist around papal statements to equate a strict pacifist stance, not just the press but even people from within the Vatican. I really don't view the war on terror or people's decision to support it to be necessarily something done out of greed. Perhaps in the case of some, but not all. As I said before, I wrestle with this quite a bit.[/quote]
Yah, even though he opposed the war strongly, I don't think he was speaking of the war itself, but rather the general violence and chaos which has engulfed the region. The "continual slaughter" the Pope is referring to is terrorism. I don't think anyone can deny that terrorism has cast a pall over that region, and it hasn't gotten better in 4 years, which is why the American government increased its troop presence in Iraq.

[ThomasDM]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1235953' date='Apr 9 2007, 06:40 AM']Yah, even though he opposed the war strongly, I don't think he was speaking of the war itself, but rather the general violence and chaos which has engulfed the region. The "continual slaughter" the Pope is referring to is terrorism. I don't think anyone can deny that terrorism has cast a pall over that region, and it hasn't gotten better in 4 years, which is why the American government increased its troop presence in Iraq.[/quote]

Could it be possible that it hasn't gotten better, or that it's gotten worse because of the strong U.S. military presence in the Middle East as most analysts suggest?

[Era Might]

If you think it's bad now, just imagine how bad it might be if there is no US presence there to police the terrorists. I don't think the terrorists would quietly become peaceful once the Americans leave. I'm not up on all the different issues, but I believe that there are different Iraqui groups fighting one another, and that is why civil war is such a real possibility. The main problem in Iraq right now is the Iraquis, blowing each other up. I think it's a legitimate question to ask whether we should have gone there in the first place (I believe no), but we are there. The question we have to ask ourselves is whether leaving the Iraquis alone to fend for themselves right now is a just thing to do? I don't know that it is.

[Anomaly]

Personally, I find it disturbing and slightly disgusting the continued politicazation of these world problems and the FAILURE of the Catholic Church it identify specific moral principles that should guide Christians in evaluating and possibly discerning courses of actions.

Look at the media title of this article (I had seen this yesterday), trumpeting the Pope as saying 'nothing positive from Iraq'. Yes, it does seem to be taking the Pope out of context, but what is the clear context of the Pope's message.

Yeah, we know there's a problem in Darfur, Iraq, Isreal, Congo, etc. But what should/could be done? ThomasDM now feels 'ashamed' about the war of aggression in Iraq. That's helpful or useful how? Is that what really it was? Mistake? Probably. But a war of agression to take over terrritory, force our will to oppress the Iraqi people? Be realistic and little more honest.

But the message is muddled in political correctness, so Catholics, Christians, non-Christians, politicians, and people with ill-intent can put their spin on it with no reall defense about what the intent is to come up with guidance to help the people in Iraq, Isreal, Syria, Congo, Darfur, Zimbabwe.

Should Christians just write a letter of 'solidarity' and promise to pray for the victims?

Has Catholic Christianity become Pacifism and there is no such thing as using violence in self defense?

It makes me wonder if Christianity has become the passive Samaritan who watched the mugging and in a passive and holy manner, standing aside until the beating and robbing was completed before taking the victim to the hospital?

[toledo_jesus]

I would think His Holiness might be more than a little concerned about the threat radical Islam poses...after all, it was he himself who touched off one of their worldwide riots which resulted in senseless deaths. Faced with that sort of behavior, I would think that even the pope would concede that these people are not open to dialogue and that the West should do something to defend itself.

This is why popes are not statesmen anymore. While it may be "right" for us to be at peace, the hard truth is that the Muslims make it impossible. Shall we all be martyrs?

And yes, we should even look out for the so-called "moderate" Muslims...they still think we should convert, and they are obviously wrong. While they may not pull the trigger, a wide part of the population of these "moderates" is either supportive or apathetic towards their radical bretheren, not willing to take a stand against them.

So I would acknowledge the pope's correctness and continue to do what is necessary to ensure that we don't speak Arabic in the Vatican within 100 years.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote]And yes, we should even look out for the so-called "moderate" Muslims...they still think we should convert, and they are obviously wrong. While they may not pull the trigger, a wide part of the population of these "moderates" is either supportive or apathetic towards their radical bretheren, not willing to take a stand against them.[/quote]

So my family is sympathetic towards terrorists now?

[Anomaly]

An 'inconvenient truth' that is usually ignored by today's pacifist Catholics:

[quote]Certainly, war has not been rooted out of human affairs. As long as the danger of war remains and there is no competent and sufficiently powerful authority at the international level, governments cannot be denied the right to legitimate defense once every means of peaceful settlement has been exhausted. State authorities and others who share public responsibility have the duty to conduct such grave matters soberly and to protect the welfare of the people entrusted to their care. But it is one thing to undertake military action for the just defense of the people, and something else again to seek the subjugation of other nations. [b]Nor, by the same token, does the mere fact that war has unhappily begun mean that all is fair between the warring parties. [/b]
[b]Those too who devote themselves to the military service of their country should regard themselves as the agents of security and freedom of peoples. As long as they fulfil this role properly, they are making a genuine contribution to the establishment of peace.[/b][/quote]
hmmmm.....

So regardless of the unhappy fact that war has started in Iraq, that does not mean that all is fair between the warring parties. Is it fair to abandon the Iraqi people to those willing to commit the most heinous crimes against civillians?

How is the military supposed to fulfill their roles 'as agents of security and freedom'? What are the moral ramifications if the US abandons the Iraqi people without established military and police organizations to fulfill these duties?

Edited April 9, 2007 by Anomaly

[Didymus]

[quote name='ThomasDM' post='1235841' date='Apr 9 2007, 01:32 AM']I've opened my eyes now and I see that there are so many things that we could be doing so much better on this earth. Currently because of global warming an unprecedented number of species are threatened with extinction. Our greedy ways threaten the very planet that was provided to us by our Creator. [If you would like to argue against the Global Warming point, please feel free to publish any conflicting 'evidence' in a peer reviewed scientific journal where the data can be scrutinized, and replicated to test its integrity - because there hasn't been such an article disputing global warming printed in such a journal in the last ten years. The facts are solidifying at an every increasing rate.][/quote]

how about the fact that global warming is an exaggerated load of propaganda? If we were to discuss global warming, why wouldnt we start with why it could possibly be legitimate to worry about it in the first place. To open a conversation debunking it would be backwards because support of the global warming scare would be the far-fetched side of the argument.

maybe this should be another thread... by bad

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' post='1236006' date='Apr 9 2007, 08:34 AM']So I would acknowledge the pope's correctness and continue to do what is necessary to ensure that we don't speak Arabic in the Vatican within 100 years.[/quote]

Radical Isalamic extrememists don't want to rule the West - they want to destroy it. They don't want us speaking Arabic, either! For them, it is not a goal of territory or resource control (like it usually is for Western conflicts). Its a goal of eliminating those with different belief systems - an all or nothing proposition.