The Errors Of Mohammedanism Agasint Reason

[Resurrexi]

Could anyone describe the errors of Mohammedanism, especially the errors against reason?

[Justified Saint]

Errors against reason? As in violating the law of noncontradiction?

[Templari]

Ok there most fundamental error seems to go more with reason rather then against it... they deny the trinity. As i said this seems to go more with reason but it does in the end create a less loving God, and a more dictatorial God, but that doesn't neccesarily reasonably follow.

There are less logical errors in Mohammadonism then there are in other heresies and false religions because Mohammad kept it very simple, and said rather little. It is not a religion essential of thought or theology (not to say they dont think) but it is one more heavily based on works. The religion is simple, there is one great God, Mohhammad is is prophet, pray and act as his prophet instructed.

I have never read the Quaran but it seems that it is closestly related to one of the books of the Torah, where it is partially stories, and partially laws, perhaps some songs thrown in, but it does not seem to be like the Epistles which are much concerned with beliefs. You believe what you are told.

Im sure more studdying the Quaran would find problems though.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1237126' date='Apr 9 2007, 09:24 PM']Errors against reason? As in violating the law of noncontradiction?[/quote]

I'm asking how Mohammedanism contradicts reason like polytheism contradicts reason, saying the human soul dies contradicts reason, etc.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1237164' date='Apr 9 2007, 09:53 PM']I'm asking how Mohammedanism contradicts reason like polytheism contradicts reason, saying the human soul dies contradicts reason, etc.[/quote]

That seems an odd way of putting it. I would think the immortality of the soul is more a matter of revelation than reason. To wit, there is nothing unreasonable, i.e. logically contradictory, to say that the human soul dies. To posit that the human soul dies already implies it is reasonable otherwise it would be a meaningless statement. Yet, I have a pretty good idea of what is meant when one says "the human soul dies".

[Hirsap]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1237173' date='Apr 10 2007, 03:03 PM']That seems an odd way of putting it. I would think the immortality of the soul is more a matter of revelation than reason. To wit, there is nothing unreasonable, i.e. logically contradictory, to say that the human soul dies. To posit that the human soul dies already implies it is reasonable otherwise it would be a meaningless statement. Yet, I have a pretty good idea of what is meant when one says "the human soul dies".[/quote]

I would have to disagree there. That the soul exists can be known through reason unaided by Revelation (in this case through Psychology); as can the existence of God for instance. This would not mean that the existence of the soul is not also a subject of Divine Revelation in some respect at least. E.g.: Jesus reveals the existence of the soul in declaring the reality of life after death.

While this truth is attainable through human reason, it does not mean that this is easily done so, that is, when considering the darkening of the intellect resulting from Original Sin. That's why it is true as you assert, that Divine Revelation is really necessary for many of us to understand even truths which can be naturally attained.

(The soul cannot die as it is by nature immortal, that is, in not relying on materiality for its existence, it cannot be destroyed in any natural process as can material objects and beings.)

Thats my 2 cents.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Hirsap

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Hirsap' post='1237533' date='Apr 10 2007, 03:57 AM']I would have to disagree there. That the soul exists can be known through reason unaided by Revelation (in this case through Psychology); as can the existence of God for instance. This would not mean that the existence of the soul is not also a subject of Divine Revelation in some respect at least. E.g.: Jesus reveals the existence of the soul in declaring the reality of life after death.

While this truth is attainable through human reason, it does not mean that this is easily done so, that is, when considering the darkening of the intellect resulting from Original Sin. That's why it is true as you assert, that Divine Revelation is really necessary for many of us to understand even truths which can be naturally attained.

(The soul cannot die as it is by nature immortal, that is, in not relying on materiality for its existence, it cannot be destroyed in any natural process as can material objects and beings.)

Thats my 2 cents. [/quote]
Only a few people would disagree that the soul exists. I think the point was that many more would say the soul is immortal. Can you prove that from reason?

STM, I admit that I'm no expert on Islam, but I would say that Islam's view of God is incompatible with what we know about creation and sin. First, because their perception is that God is not a lover. Only love can create. An all-mighty but unloving being would not need to express his omnipotence in creating a world, even by forcing all his creatures to submit to his might. Second, their perception is that God is not actively merciful...once we sinned, he would either have abandoned us all or wiped us out, but to permit us to live on and, indeed, to continue to give us gifts...that is unreasonable for their perception of God.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Hirsap' post='1237533' date='Apr 10 2007, 02:57 AM']I would have to disagree there. That the soul exists can be known through reason unaided by Revelation (in this case through Psychology); as can the existence of God for instance. This would not mean that the existence of the soul is not also a subject of Divine Revelation in some respect at least. E.g.: Jesus reveals the existence of the soul in declaring the reality of life after death.

While this truth is attainable through human reason, it does not mean that this is easily done so, that is, when considering the darkening of the intellect resulting from Original Sin. That's why it is true as you assert, that Divine Revelation is really necessary for many of us to understand even truths which can be naturally attained.

(The soul cannot die as it is by nature immortal, that is, in not relying on materiality for its existence, it cannot be destroyed in any natural process as can material objects and beings.)

Thats my 2 cents. [/quote]

As Raph pointed out, the existence of the soul and its immortality seem to be two separate issues even though they go hand in hand. I am concerned with the latter and just because something is immaterial doesn't mean its immortal. If the soul was created, then it could be destroyed.

And to further clarify, not wishing to uncessarily hijack this thread, the only point I was trying to make was that prima facie the proposition that the "human soul dies" is no more reasonable or unreasonable than the proposition that the "human soul lives forever." Just like with the existence of God, one could have a debate on the topic of human immortality, and it is not the case that the less convincing side would be said to be "unreasonable" or "contradicting reason." Also, I did not mean to imply that the immortality of the soul was beyond reason or couldn't be grasped by it, though I do think it is more a matter of revelation.

[Hirsap]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1237650' date='Apr 11 2007, 02:37 AM']As Raph pointed out, the existence of the soul and its immortality seem to be two separate issues even though they go hand in hand. I am concerned with the latter and just because something is immaterial doesn't mean its immortal. If the soul was created, then it could be destroyed.[/quote]

Yes I agree, the soul can theoretically 'die' into a state of non-existence, but this cannot naturally happen. The soul is naturally immortal (that is, if allowed to continue in its nature by God). Only with the intervention of God could this be realised (which would of course, simply involve Him removing His 'sustainance' all contingent beings require to exist). Without moving away from the original topic (i know this is hard!), I know that in Natural Theology this is shown to be true (that is, through reason alone). Since the soul is immaterial, and only material objects are subject naturally to decay and destruction, the soul cannot naturally dissolve, being not made of material componants.

Edited April 11, 2007 by Hirsap