Mary's Sister

[kenrockthefirst]

I was reading the Gospel of John last night and ran across this verse, which I had never really given much thought to:

"Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala." (Jn. 19:25)

Do the other Gospels mention Mary's sister? Is this a situation similar to the "brothers of Jesus," i.e. "sister" can also be translated as "cousin" or "kinswoman?" If it [i]does[/i] mean "sister," what does the Church teach about this in terms of the Immaculate Conception and any siblings Mary had / may have had?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1238597' date='Apr 11 2007, 09:04 AM']I was reading the Gospel of John last night and ran across this verse, which I had never really given much thought to:

"Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala." (Jn. 19:25)

Do the other Gospels mention Mary's sister? Is this a situation similar to the "brothers of Jesus," i.e. "sister" can also be translated as "cousin" or "kinswoman?" If it [i]does[/i] mean "sister," what does the Church teach about this in terms of the Immaculate Conception and any siblings Mary had / may have had?[/quote]

This Mary is actually significant in the discussion of Mary's perpetual virginity. Most likely she is a cousin or some other relation to Mary as it would be very unlikely that there were two Mary's in the same family. In Mark's Gospel she is likely Mary, mother of James.

Mark.16
[1] And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.

And in Matt's gospel, she is the mother of James and Joseph:

Matt.27
[56] among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and [b]Mary the mother of James and Joseph[/b], and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee.

Now comes the kicker. The common verses used to "prove" that Mary had other children are:

Matt.13
[55] Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers [b]James and Joseph [/b]and Simon and Judas?


Mark.6
[3] Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of[b] James and Joses [/b]and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

Joses obviously equivalent to Joseph. This adds credence to the Catholic claim that James and Joseph were related to Jesus rather than actual blood brothers.

It should also be noted that some in the early Church claimed that Clopas was another name for Alpheus, kinda like Robert and Bob, or perhaps hebrew vs. Greek.

Mark.3
[17] James the son of Zeb'edee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-aner'ges, that is, sons of thunder;
[18] Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and [b]James the son of Alphaeus[/b], and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean,

Thus the Apostle James (the Lords brother of Gal 3:19) may have been this James as well.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1238997' date='Apr 11 2007, 04:17 PM']This Mary is actually significant in the discussion of Mary's perpetual virginity. Most likely she is a cousin or some other relation to Mary as it would be very unlikely that there were two Mary's in the same family. In Mark's Gospel she is likely Mary, mother of James.

Mark.16
[1] And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.

And in Matt's gospel, she is the mother of James and Joseph:

Matt.27
[56] among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and [b]Mary the mother of James and Joseph[/b], and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee.

Now comes the kicker. The common verses used to "prove" that Mary had other children are:

Matt.13
[55] Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers [b]James and Joseph [/b]and Simon and Judas?
Mark.6
[3] Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of[b] James and Joses [/b]and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

Joses obviously equivalent to Joseph. This adds credence to the Catholic claim that James and Joseph were related to Jesus rather than actual blood brothers.

It should also be noted that some in the early Church claimed that Clopas was another name for Alpheus, kinda like Robert and Bob, or perhaps hebrew vs. Greek.

Mark.3
[17] James the son of Zeb'edee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-aner'ges, that is, sons of thunder;
[18] Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and [b]James the son of Alphaeus[/b], and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean,

Thus the Apostle James (the Lords brother of Gal 3:19) may have been this James as well.[/quote]

Why then isn't "sister" translated as "cousin," especially given the apparent silliness of having two Mary's from the same immediate family?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1239793' date='Apr 12 2007, 09:57 AM']Why then isn't "sister" translated as "cousin," especially given the apparent silliness of having two Mary's from the same immediate family?[/quote]

The same reason Jesus' relatives aren't called "cousins". In Hebrew (yes, I know the NT is written in Greek, but Aramaic, a version of Hebrew, was still what they spoke), there isn't a real word for "cousin". You can say your mother's brother's son (no word for aunt or uncle either, if I'm not mistaken), or just say brother.

[thessalonian]

To go with AC's post, culterally the Jewish family was much more extended than the way we see families today. A faminly including close relatives was an economic unity. You have to remember your looking back at a culture here and applying OUR language to it. There is not a one to one correspondence of words that makes it easy and clear. There is a best fit and phrase. But one would have to go back to the hebrew, greek, and the culture in order to more fully understand. They simply had no problem speaking of others who were not immediate family as brother and sister. Even in our language it can be done but is not nearly as common.

Along with what AC said, in the Old Testament for instance Lot is quite clearly Abraham's nephew but he is called the hebrew word that is tranlated brother. Ack if my memory serves me corretly.

Edited April 12, 2007 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

Put another way, the original authors of the scriptures would have thought nothing of using the word that ends up as brother in our language for someone who was of another relation. Perhaps cousin but perhaps a niece or a more distant relative. What exactly that relation was likely would not have been known by the time that another language had to deal with the issue.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1239817' date='Apr 12 2007, 09:34 AM']The same reason Jesus' relatives aren't called "cousins". In Hebrew (yes, I know the NT is written in Greek, but Aramaic, a version of Hebrew, was still what they spoke), there isn't a real word for "cousin". You can say your mother's brother's son (no word for aunt or uncle either, if I'm not mistaken), or just say brother.[/quote]

Fair enough but I don't recall any case in which the text says, "Jesus and his brother, Jesus..."

In any event, I presume / hope that any decent annotated Bible would have a footnote on this.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1240080' date='Apr 12 2007, 01:57 PM']Fair enough but I don't recall any case in which the text says, "Jesus and his brother, Jesus..."

In any event, I presume / hope that any decent annotated Bible would have a footnote on this.[/quote]

I think it's worded "His mother and brothers" (like in Matthew 13:35). I don't know about the footnotes, though. Haven't checked in a while, to be honest. The Bible I took with me to England is very compact, so it doesn't a lot of footnotes. I'd love to hear from someone who has access to a nice annotated Bible, though. I'll have to get the rest of my stuff back from the US while I'm in.