Why I'm Catholic

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1240507' date='Apr 12 2007, 08:44 PM']Liberalism, in the context referred to here, refers to "religious liberalism" or "social liberalism," which is indeed contrary to the true Catholic Faith. No one was discussing economic theory here, which I think was clear from the context.

"Liberal Catholicism" commonly refers to the rejection of the Church's tradition and moral and dogmatic authority. The rejection of the Church's moral and teaching authority, of traditional and reverent forms of worship, and of "traditional" morality, and its replacement with a "do-your-own-thing" mentality are all parts of liberalism in the Church.
This is a mirror of secular "social liberalism" with its endorsement of immorality, particularly sexual immorality, and embrace of abortion, sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, and radical feminism.

And if the parish described did happen to believe in "big business" or a strong defense, it would still not be conservative in any meaningful and true sense of the word, so long as it embraced rebellion against Church authority and tradition, and moral nihilism. (And there are plenty of liberals in "big business," btw)

Having confused morals and heterodoxy may not necessarily make one a liberal, but "liberal Catholicism" certainly pushes heterodoxy and moral confusion.

I stand my ground and say that liberalism, at least in the social/religious sense, has no place in the Church.

And your accusing me of being a "neo-conservative" shows your ignorance; it is apparent you probably have no clue what a neo-conservative is. (It refers to people having a "Zionist" and expanionist policy agenda, among other things, but that obviously has nothing to do with anything I have said here.) If you're going to try to use a word as a slur, you might try to at least find out what it means beforehand. [/quote]


Being 'conservative' in the Church is no better than being 'liberal'. they are not lables to be used in the faith! I do agree that in context "we all know what you mean", but that doesn't make it ok. The labels 'liberal' and 'conservative' themselves imply some sort of opinion or middle ground, they imply that one is not better than the other, it's just how you view it. i would go so far as to say that using them in matters of faith distracts from the true issue, obedience to the Vicar of Christ, and make your personal opinion the ultimate authority. the word 'conservative' itself does NOT mean orthodox, and you almost make it synonymous with 'saintly'. i'm not saying that politically i'm liberal or conservative, i'm just saying that in they church they shouldn't be used.

i do admit that political liberals DO more commonly promote immoral agendas, but that is not by necessity. the word liberal has been polluted by the liberals. ha that sounds funny. but its kinda like how ghandi said he'd be christian if it wasn't for all the christians.

also, i wasn't refering to what you said here when i said i am beginning to think you are a neocon. i just mean over the year and a half or so that i've read stuff on this phorum you have seemed the most conservative and narrow minded and yes, almost zionist. so basically, it had nothing really to do with this debate.....just the fact that all things 'liberal' to you are evil reminded me of it. sorry bout that.

[Socrates]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1241179' date='Apr 13 2007, 01:02 AM']Being 'conservative' in the Church is no better than being 'liberal'. they are not lables to be used in the faith! I do agree that in context "we all know what you mean", but that doesn't make it ok. The labels 'liberal' and 'conservative' themselves imply some sort of opinion or middle ground, they imply that one is not better than the other, it's just how you view it. i would go so far as to say that using them in matters of faith distracts from the true issue, obedience to the Vicar of Christ, and make your personal opinion the ultimate authority. the word 'conservative' itself does NOT mean orthodox, and you almost make it synonymous with 'saintly'. i'm not saying that politically i'm liberal or conservative, i'm just saying that in they church they shouldn't be used.

i do admit that political liberals DO more commonly promote immoral agendas, but that is not by necessity. the word liberal has been polluted by the liberals. ha that sounds funny. but its kinda like how ghandi said he'd be christian if it wasn't for all the christians.[/quote]
While I agree that "orthodox" and "heterodox" are better labels (and get more to the point), the nonsense referred to in this thread is what is known as "liberal religion." LD himself used the word "liberal" when he started this thread, and such people would likely describe themselves as "liberal Catholics." Like it or not, that's the reality of the situation.

And I do not simply equate heterodoxy with liberalism and orthodoxy with conservatism (though 99% of the time those desribed as "conservative" are more orthodox than those described as "liberal.")
I would not consider some of the extreme fringes of the "rad trad" movement to be orthodox and faithful, yet I would not characterize them as "liberal." (However, much of the "rad trad" movement is a reaction to the insanities of "liberal Catholicism.")

[quote]also, i wasn't refering to what you said here when i said i am beginning to think you are a neocon. i just mean over the year and a half or so that i've read stuff on this phorum you have seemed the most conservative and narrow minded and yes, almost zionist. so basically, it had nothing really to do with this debate.....just the fact that all things 'liberal' to you are evil reminded me of it. sorry bout that.[/quote]
That is a red herring/ad-hominem unrelated to this issue, but you still don't know what you are talking about. I have not advocated "Zionism" on these boards. (Unless you are referring to where I have been critical of militant Islam. Being against militant Islam no more makes me a "Zionist" than being against the policies of the state of Israel makes one an "anti-Semite.")
If you want to argue further about conservatives and liberals, etc., start a thread in the debate table, rather than spewing out accusations of me being "narrow-minded," "zionist," etc.
That is about as productive to the discussion as if I were to dismiss what you say by calling you a "liberal wuss."

And I do believe that almost no good has come out of liberalism, religious or political.

Edited April 15, 2007 by Socrates

[A Yearning Heart]

that there are so called parishes like that in the world

[got2luvjc]

[quote name='A Yearning Heart' post='1245504' date='Apr 16 2007, 06:48 AM'] that there are so called parishes like that in the world [/quote]


I feel the same way.

I'm curious, does this church that u went to call itself a "liberal catholic church"? there's a "Liberal Catholic Church" (thats what it says on the sign outside) near where I live, and I think when I get back from college, I'm going to take a peak inside and see if they have any literature to give me so I can understand why they believe what they believe. I'm not going inside to convert, lol I'm just going to be informed.

Edited April 16, 2007 by got2luvjc

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='got2luvjc' post='1245970' date='Apr 16 2007, 05:27 PM']I feel the same way.

I'm curious, does this church that u went to call itself a "liberal catholic church"? there's a "Liberal Catholic Church" (thats what it says on the sign outside) near where I live, and I think when I get back from college, I'm going to take a peak inside and see if they have any literature to give me so I can understand why they believe what they believe. I'm not going inside to convert, lol I'm just going to be informed.[/quote]Just FYI, there is a relatively new denomination which calls itself "Liberal Catholic Church". It is not in union with the Catholic Church. As you can imagine, the confusion that such a name causes is intentional.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Catholic_Church"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Catholic_Church[/url]

Edited April 16, 2007 by Mateo el Feo