Joe Lieberman

[RezaMikhaeil]

Being that everyone is discussing politics, I thought that this would be an interesting discussion.

Do you think that if Joe Lieberman ran independantly for president, that he could steal the election? It appears that the Democratic party is taking an idiotic stance, dangling far from the center, towards the ulta liberal arena, while the Republicans might be going more liberal with Rudy Giuliani. The Evangelical Religious Right [and the other religious groups that largely agree with them] that is probably a great percentage of votes, aren't going to vote for Rudy, because of his weak stance on abortion and other social issues, but wont even entertain the idea of voting for the far left, but Joe.... Joe Lieberman is for the war in Iraq, has been for it from the beginning, has been a supporter of it, is against abortion [and I think against gay marriage also], therefore could possibly qualify for the Evangelicals to vote for, and of course there's also the fact that he's of Jewish liniage, so those Messianic and Zionist Christians would love that idea.

What do you think?

Reza

[Groo the Wanderer]

I *think* he has been flippyfloppy on abortion and gay marriage.

If he were to go staunchly against both, he would have a chance.

[Guest T-Bone]

I would *gasp* seriously consider voting for him.

(But then I have no party ties. I'm just conservative.)

[Katholikos]

Joe L -- during the Gore-Lieberman presidential election -- was pro-abortion. I presume he still is. I don't know what his opinion is on same-sex marriage.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1245948' date='Apr 16 2007, 02:21 PM']Joe L -- during the Gore-Lieberman presidential election -- was pro-abortion. I presume he still is. I don't know what his opinion is on same-sex marriage.[/quote]

He was in order to compromise, to be Al-Gores running mate but has since gone back to his stance against abortion [and I think the same on same sex marriage, thou I'm not posetive].

Reza

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1246053' date='Apr 16 2007, 06:26 PM']He was in order to compromise, to be Al-Gores running mate but has since gone back to his stance against abortion [and I think the same on same sex marriage, thou I'm not posetive].[/quote]I have not seen any hard proof that Lieberman has gone back to a stance against abortion. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1246091' date='Apr 16 2007, 03:47 PM']I have not seen any hard proof that Lieberman has gone back to a stance against abortion. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.[/quote]

Lieberman himself is against abortion [and I thought voted with Mr. Bush against it, but I was wrong], but supports pro-choice [and in regards to partial birth, I don't know]. He believes in upholding the state laws, not imposing his personal agenda on others.

[quote]Reproductive Rights Lieberman opposed the "Child Custody Protection Act" of 2006 that made it a crime to transport a minor across state lines for the purpose of an abortion. Lieberman has supported the right of Catholic hospitals to refuse to provide contraceptives. [/quote][quote]Gay rights: Lieberman voted against a constitutional ban on same-sex marriage, but opposes legalizing same-sex marriage.[/quote]

Either way, he's still more conservative then Rudy and Hillary.

Reza

[Socrates]

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1245688' date='Apr 16 2007, 11:03 AM']I would *gasp* seriously consider voting for him.

(But then I have no party ties. I'm just conservative.)[/quote]
Don't be fooled. Lieberman is no conservative. And he is certainly not prolife, but has a 100% pro-abortion voting record in the senate. He's basically a typical party-of-death liberal, despite how the media likes to talk up his "religiousness." The only thing he varies significantly with his fellow Dems on is that he continued to support the Iraq War.

[b][url="http://ontheissues.org/Joseph_Lieberman.htm"]Joseph Lieberman on Abortion[/url][/b]

Day 1: Repeal the Bush restrictions on stem cell research. (Jan 2004)
Keep abortion safe, rare and legal; with 24-week viability. (Dec 2003)
FDA’s RU-486 decision stands; it’s made properly by experts. (Oct 2000)
Leave abortion decision to a woman, her doctor, and her god. (Oct 2000)
Rejected partial-birth ban since it ignored maternal health. (Oct 2000)
Supports abortion rights within his faith, not despite it. (Sep 2000)
Parental consent with judicial override; Gore agrees. (Aug 2000)
Supported parental notification for minors; but pro-choice. (Aug 2000)
Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
[b]Voted NO on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime.[/b] (Mar 2004)
[b]Voted NO on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life.[/b] (Mar 2003)
[b]Voted NO on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions.[/b] (Jun 2000)
[b]Voted NO on banning partial birth abortions.[/b] (Oct 1999)
[b]Voted NO on banning human cloning.[/b] (Feb 1998)
[b]Rated 100% by NARAL, indicating a pro-choice voting record.[/b] (Dec 2003)
[b]Expand embryonic stem cell research. [/b](Jun 2004)

[url="http://ontheissues.org/Joseph_Lieberman.htm"]http://ontheissues.org/Joseph_Lieberman.htm[/url]

His record is just as pro-abortion as Hillary's.

[Socrates]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1246233' date='Apr 16 2007, 06:18 PM']Lieberman himself is against abortion [and I thought voted with Mr. Bush against it, but I was wrong], but supports pro-choice [and in regards to partial birth, I don't know]. He believes in upholding the state laws, not imposing his personal agenda on others.[/quote]
That "personally opposed but . . ." nonsense is nothing but a lot of politician bull-oney.

Roe v. Wade was an attrocious ruling on all levels - both moral and legal - and should be overturned.

Abortion is murder - the deliberate taking of an innocent human life - and thus, there can be no "right" to abortion, unless you want to argue for a "right" to all murder.

If the law fails to protect innocent human life at its most vulnerable, it has failed at its most fundamental level.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote]The only thing he varies significantly with his fellow Dems on is that he continued to support the Iraq War.[/quote] What about being against homosexual marriage? Rudy is for abortion too, so what makes him more conservative then Joe?

Reza

[Socrates]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1246498' date='Apr 16 2007, 08:10 PM']What about being against homosexual marriage? Rudy is for abortion too, so what makes him more conservative then Joe?

Reza[/quote]
Unfortunately, not much. I'm not a fan of either politician.
Rudy has at least promised to appoint conservative justices to the SCOTUS, though I take him with a grain of salt.
Lieberman hs done nothing to indicate anything other than continued support of abortion.

But, yeah comparing these two is basically comparing onions and onions.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1246522' date='Apr 16 2007, 07:19 PM']Unfortunately, not much. I'm not a fan of either politician.
Rudy has at least promised to appoint conservative justices to the SCOTUS, though I take him with a grain of salt.
Lieberman hs done nothing to indicate anything other than continued support of abortion.

But, yeah comparing these two is basically comparing onions and onions.[/quote]

So what are you gonna do if Rudy wins the nomination?

[Socrates]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1246530' date='Apr 16 2007, 08:24 PM']So what are you gonna do if Rudy wins the nomination?[/quote]
Probably vote third-party.

[Mercy me]

While I find myself opposed to many of Joe Leiberman's positions, I hold him in very high regard because he is one of the few politicians who has the courage of his convictions. I think that it says a lot about a man when he actually does what he says in an atmoshere like Washington's that seems to corrupt so many.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1247599' date='Apr 17 2007, 08:42 PM']While I find myself opposed to many of Joe Leiberman's positions, I hold him in very high regard because he is one of the few politicians who has the courage of his convictions. I think that it says a lot about a man when he actually does what he says in an atmoshere like Washington's that seems to corrupt so many.[/quote]
I honestly don't know why you seem so impressed by him. Take his abortion position. He claims his personal convictions are that abortion is wrong, yet as a Senator he does everything in his power to support abortion, voting against even the smallest restrictions on this heinous crime.
That is hardly "courage of conviction" but either cowardice or hypocrisy.

Simply trumpeting that he is "devoutly religious" does not equal conviction or courage.

[RezaMikhaeil]

Joe holds to the theory that he's a representative of the people and would like to support whatever laws reflect that of the people, rather then make his religious beliefs the beliefs of everyone.

Reza

[Budge]

I didnt think he was that major of a candidate?

[Socrates]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1247815' date='Apr 18 2007, 02:22 AM']Joe holds to the theory that he's a representative of the people and would like to support whatever laws reflect that of the people, rather then make his religious beliefs the beliefs of everyone.

Reza[/quote]
What if the majority of the people were to decide that the law should allow killing of blacks, Jews, or [fill in the blank minority]?
Would you in such a case still find a politician's desire to "support the beliefs of the people" such a noble ideal, or would you regard said politician as a spineless moral coward and accomplice to evil??

And "the people" are split on the issue of abortion. I even believe polls tend to show a solid majority being against "partial-birth abortion", which Sen. Lieberman opposed banning.

We've been over this before - your apparent deifying of "the will of the people (i.e. the majority)", and placing it above all other moral and legal considerations is absurd and despicable.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1247614' date='Apr 17 2007, 09:52 PM']I honestly don't know why you seem so impressed by him. Take his abortion position. He claims his personal convictions are that abortion is wrong, yet as a Senator he does everything in his power to support abortion, voting against even the smallest restrictions on this heinous crime.
That is hardly "courage of conviction" but either cowardice or hypocrisy.

Simply trumpeting that he is "devoutly religious" does not equal conviction or courage.[/quote]

I didn't say that I agree with him. I said that I respect him because he does what he says he will do. He says that he represents the people of the stat eof Connecticut and he sets aside his own personal views to do what the people that he represents want. CT is a very liberal state and Lieberman is liberal.

It is sad to say that it is unusual that politicians do what they say they will do. But we live in a world where our political "leaders" figure out their possitions by polling. Joe Lieberman is not like that and I respect him for that

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1248575' date='Apr 18 2007, 10:36 PM']I didn't say that I agree with him. I said that I respect him because he does what he says he will do. He says that he represents the people of the state of Connecticut and he sets aside his own personal views to do what the people that he represents want. CT is a very liberal state and Lieberman is liberal.

It is sad to say that it is unusual that politicians do what they say they will do. But we live in a world where our political "leaders" figure out their possitions by polling. Joe Lieberman is not like that and I respect him for that[/quote]You're making contradictory statements. For example, if he led a conservative state, would he "do what the people the he represents want"? That would make him a leader who figures out his positions by polling.

It's either one or the other. You can't have both.