Hell

[dairygirl4u2c]

ty

[Anomaly]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1245826' date='Apr 16 2007, 03:30 PM']ty[/quote]
pot stirrer.

[Justin (Wiccan)]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1245826' date='Apr 16 2007, 03:30 PM']ty[/quote]

That is not what was said in the previous thread, dearheart.

[Justin (Wiccan)]

Drat! Where are all these double posts coming from?

Edited April 16, 2007 by Justin (Wiccan)

[Guest T-Bone]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Justin (Wiccan)' post='1245840' date='Apr 16 2007, 03:40 PM']That is not what was said in the previous thread, dearheart.[/quote]I'd bet $50 that dairy is well aware that isn't what was said in the other thread. But the other thread caused dairy to extrapolate the train of thoughts of some of the other posters and so she's asking this question. If I wasn't such a boor, I'd wouldn't comment that Budge will soon post and quote scripture that Catholics believe that we must worship Mary to escape Hell, thess or Akalyte would comment how Prots always are creating something new to twist Catholicism, and ____ (too many) will defend anything Catholic as being beyond question and not really answer. Fortunately, I am such a boor and shared these observations.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Anomaly

[Mateo el Feo]

Dairy is just doing more "poking and prodding." I always thought of her as playing the role of resident anthropologist, exploring and discovering the nuances of belief among the inhabitants of the island of Phatmasia.

She does her part to make things a little more interesting around here.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]If I wasn't such a boor, I'd wouldn't comment that Budge will soon post and quote scripture that Catholics believe that we must worship Mary to escape Hell, thess or Akalyte would comment how Prots always are creating something new to twist Catholicism, and ____ (too many) will defend anything Catholic as being beyond question and not really answer.[/quote]

That should have begun, "If I [i]weren't[/i] such a boor..." You need to use the subjunctive mood when making counterfactual statements.

*toddles back to linguistics project*

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1245850' date='Apr 16 2007, 01:55 PM']Dairy is just doing more "poking and prodding." I always thought of her as playing the role of resident anthropologist, exploring and discovering the nuances of belief among the inhabitants of the island of Phatmasia.

She does her part to make things a little more interesting around here. [/quote]
that is how I think of her as well ... people complain about her polls, but she sometimes has really interesting insights.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1245876' date='Apr 16 2007, 04:34 PM']That should have begun, "If I [i]weren't[/i] such a boor..." You need to use the subjunctive mood when making counterfactual statements.

*toddles back to linguistics project*[/quote]
Not be be a boor, but....

Isn't 'wasn't' singular, and 'weren't' plural?

I wasn't....

They weren't....

** glares peevishly at the computer **

Edited April 16, 2007 by Anomaly

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1245897' date='Apr 16 2007, 02:51 PM']Not be be a boor, but....

Isn't 'wasn't' singular, and 'weren't' plural?

I wasn't....

They weren't....

** sits peavishly at the computer **[/quote]
no she's right

the article on subjunctive mood in wikipedia explains it. I never knew about it until I took Spanish, which helped me learn English grammar better.

[thessalonian]

The problem is that there is a mary and if a Catholic does not acknowledge who she is and her role, unless invinible ignorance is the case, ie. if you obstinately refuse the marian dogma's you are apostate. Why, because she is our Mother, she is Christ's Mother, and she in fact will be the cause for many to go to heaven through intercession to her. She is not the first cause of our salvatoin, but without her intercession as our mother most would be damned.

[Justin (Wiccan)]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1245909' date='Apr 16 2007, 05:01 PM']The problem is that there is a mary and if a Catholic does not acknowledge who she is and her role, unless invinible ignorance is the case, ie. if you obstinately refuse the marian dogma's you are apostate.[/quote]

Slight quibble: "Apostate" only applies (depending on the view) to those who were once Christian and left the faith, or to those who were once Catholic and left the faith. I fall under the first definition, but not the second.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Justin (Wiccan)' post='1246018' date='Apr 16 2007, 05:55 PM']Slight quibble: "Apostate" only applies (depending on the view) to those who were once Christian and left the faith, or to those who were once Catholic and left the faith. I fall under the first definition, but not the second.[/quote]Fair enough. Though the statement began, "if a [i]Catholic[/i] does not acknowledge..."

[Anomaly]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1245909' date='Apr 16 2007, 05:01 PM']The problem is that there is a mary and if a Catholic does not acknowledge who she is and her role, unless invinible ignorance is the case, ie. if you obstinately refuse the marian dogma's you are apostate. Why, because she is our Mother, she is Christ's Mother, and she in fact will be the cause for many to go to heaven through intercession to her. She is not the first cause of our salvatoin, but without her intercession as our mother most would be damned.[/quote]The problem is, you aren't saying which are the Marian Dogmas, and which aren't. Where's the Marian Dogma that spells out that Mary confers Grace (meaning she controls and directs Grace herself as opossed to being a channel of Grace)? Please reference specific RC Church documents that clearly support your claim that without Mary's direct intercession, most would be damned.

[thessalonian]

Yes, I was speaking with regard to Catholics. Non-Catholic Christians are apostates for denying other essential doctrines that are in the Catholic fold as well, such as God. No offense but I think your probably coved. You can't back out on truth. Therea are consequences if you do.

Edited April 16, 2007 by thessalonian

[Aloysius]

without Mary, there would be no salvation. she is the necessary component to the work of salvation. now, one could create all sorts of wild speculations that if it weren't Mary, God would have set up another means of salvation. but that's irrelevant because He didn't, He did it all through Mary.

as the reality stands now, Mary is an absolutely necessary part of our incarnational understanding of Christ. She magnifies Christ; and looking at her and and of herself still helps us know more about Christ.

can one be saved without ever praying to Mary? yeah, but it's far less likely. Mary helps us avoid hell, simple as that. Mary obtains grace for us; because Mary is full of Grace, Mary is filled with Christ.

without being united to the body of Christ, which includes all Christians living and dead, salvation is impossible. the whole mystical body of Christ is necessary for salvation; and that includes Mary.

One cannot have God as Father who does not have Church as mother, who does not have Mary as mother. Any beloved disciple of Christ is a beloved son of Mary. These things are inseperable; you cannot take away Mary from the equation. There is no possible way that any Christian would not have Mary to pray to; they would no longer be Christian if they were not a son of Mary. And since salvation only comes from being Christian, Mary saves us in this way.

Mary's heart was peirced with a sword so that the hearts of many might be revealed to God, Mary magnifies God and Christ.

could I see an ant without a magnifying glass? yeah, but I couldn't really get the whole thing.

could I be saved by Christ without Mary? yeah, perhaps, but I wouldn't have any understanding of Christ without an understanding of Mary. I wouldn't be fully saved unless I had sonship to Mary.

Could someone in the Davidic kingdom be helped without the intercession of the Queen Mother? sure, I suppose in theory; but that's not the way things were set up. The Queen Mother brought the people's concerns to the priest more often than not.

[Justin (Wiccan)]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1246042' date='Apr 16 2007, 06:15 PM']No offense but I think your probably coved.[/quote]

Absolutely no offense taken.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1246042' date='Apr 16 2007, 04:15 PM']Yes, I was speaking with regard to Catholics. [b]Non-Catholic Christians are apostates for denying other essential doctrines that are in the Catholic fold as well, such as God.[/b] No offense but I think your probably coved. You can't back out on truth. Therea are consequences if you do.[/quote]
*confused*

[N/A Gone]

Could you believe in the marian theology (hehe, acting like 90% of believers of any community understand theology) without ever participating in marian practices? For myself I have read numerous books on the marian dogmas, (including the 5th issue) yet the only marian thing I do is pray the rosary. Would you argue that I am not satisfying the soteriological needs of my faith?

Seperated breathen, (im speaking evan proto) have so much polemic information built into their very DNA when it comes to mary that the possibilitiy of a protestant working towards a marian theology is more impossible to imagine than an acceptance of moral theology or eucharistic need. It is my view that the heart is judged here, unknown to man, when it comes to the salavic situation of protestants in this regard. there are some that are saved because their soul thirsts for truth, and they desire the love that is direct to an experience of God. But there are some who are bitter and caught up on their own ways that they wont Budge from the self focus and submit to the ways of the divine.

/rant