Lust In Marriage

[Budge]

Micah if thats the definition of lust you all are using, I agree then,. It should be avoided.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Budge' post='1251367' date='Apr 21 2007, 07:52 AM']Reza, Im glad your life with your wife is happy now, but your experience was not the norm. Really by the laws of most states and even via the Bible before you had sex you really were not married in the truest sense. A kiss doesnt count for consumation either.
Im glad some of the Catholics realize this is true too.

[color="#FF0000"]Actually that's not true, the reason that I know if that we met with a Judge personally [a friend of ours] and he said that the only way that a marriage wouldn't legally be validated is if the couple didn't kiss in public, and even then there's ways around the law.[/color]

I can understand two virgins especially late life virgins being hesistant, even after the wedding night, but several years? That is simply not the norm. That tells me one of the parnters has some major psychological or socio- sexual issue they are dealing with.

[color="#FF0000"]No what it tells is that the couple chose to abstain for whatever purpose [you dont know the facts or the details in order to make an assumption]. As I'd pointed out, there were countless Saints that also abstained, for different purposes.[/color]

I am glad the Catholics here see what I am talking about. What if you had never been able to come together due to whatever issues there were, health, fear, lack of physical attraction-even with the presence of spiritual and emotional attraction?

[color="#FF0000"]It's not that we weren't able to come together, you're seriously misinformed but see it doesn't surprise me that you're jumping to conclusions, as you attempted to twist a scripture in your previous post to fit your agenda and it didn't work, so now you resort to a different method of manipulation.[/color]

People past menopause wouldnt be allowed to have a second marriage either [ie widowe and widowers, or infertile people.
If you never have sex, [and yes couples later may not have sex for a variety of reasons, getting old-bad health etc, mutual agreement, Catholics using NFP on short term basis--2 weeks off] you never are "married" in the fullest sense of the definition, you may be soul mates, you may be best friends, but you are NOT married. Even the BIble says the two must become one.

[color="#FF0000"]This is an idiotic response to the elderly, and definately not scriptural or possess much knowledge. The Bible does say that the two must become one, spiritually my friend, spiritually. You seriously like to take scriptures out of context don't you?[/color][/quote]

[Budge]

[quote]
Actually that's not true, the reason that I know if that we met with a Judge personally [a friend of ours]and he said that the only way that a marriage wouldn't legally be validated is if the couple didn't kiss in public, and even then there's ways around the law.[/quote]

Maybe in your home country, but thats not true in America. I know that for a fact. In every state in America, that for a marriage to be valid, it has to be consummated, otherwise you can go get an annulment that says you were never married. If your Judge was American, he was wrong.

[quote]
No what it tells is that the couple chose to abstain for whatever purpose [you dont know the facts or the details in order to make an assumption]. As I'd pointed out, there were countless Saints that also abstained, for different purposes.[/quote]

I have pointed out couples do abstain for different reasons. However if you have never consummated a marriage you werent married, but were in a state of engagment at most.

I do not know what led you to avoid the natural joys of marriage, whether it was illness or your own issues but doing this from the start for several years is not normal. Even your catholic brothers and sisters have pointed this out to you. I dont know if you come out of some culture or country where arranged marriages are the norm and you delayed the natural things of marriage due to youth alone, but there seems to be some pieces of the puzzle missing here.

[quote]
It's not that we weren't able to come together, you're seriously misinformed but see it doesn't surprise me that you're jumping to conclusions, as you attempted to twist a scripture in your previous post to fit your agenda and it didn't work, so now you resort to a different method of manipulation.[/quote]I have noticed you kept mentioning your wives submission and obedience, so that tells me the lack of desire to come together came from your side. You do know the Bible teaches that couples are NOT to deny one another dont you? It can be done via MUTUAL agreement, but this is not something a husband is to demand of a wife and a husband is not to make a wife WAIT SEVERAL YEARS. I actualy feel sorry for her wondering what level of rejection she must have felt even if unspoken. Obviously she loves you very much to have put up with it.

The question I have too is barring any serious medical problems, military services where you are seperated, and other factors why WOULD A NORMAL HEALTHY HETEROSEXUAL MAN WANT TO KEEP HIS WIFE HE SAYS HE LOVES WAITING FOR SEVERAL YEARS?

[quote]
This is an idiotic response to the elderly, and definately not scriptural or possess much knowledge. The Bible does say that the two must become one, spiritually my friend, spiritually. You seriously like to take scriptures out of context don't you?[/quote]

If that is true, then people could be married to their "best friends"...and not even live together or anything.

Edited April 21, 2007 by Budge

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Budge' post='1251442' date='Apr 21 2007, 08:36 AM']Maybe in your home country, but thats not true in America. I know that for a fact. In every state in America, that for a marriage to be valid, it has to be consummated, otherwise you can go get an annulment that says you were never married. If your Judge was American, he was wrong.

[color="#FF0000"]Sorry but America is my home country. I was born and raised here silly sister and it was an American Judge and I definately trust him more then you but moreover, I happen to know the laws very well, and know that for a marriage to be legal, the person marrying the couple and two witnessess have to witness them kissing, simple and plain. If you don't believe so, that's your choice. There's alot that you don't believe, despite the facts and I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you.[/color]


I have pointed out couples do abstain for different reasons. However if you have never consummated a marriage you werent married, but were in a state of engagment at most.

[color="#FF0000"]Sorry, but you have a distorted view of the laws.[/color]

I do not know what led you to avoid the natural joys of marriage, whether it was illness or your own issues but doing this from the start for several years is not normal. Even your catholic brothers and sisters have pointed this out to you. I dont know if you come out of some culture or country where arranged marriages are the norm and you delayed the natural things of marriage due to youth alone, but there seems to be some pieces of the puzzle missing here.

[color="#FF0000"]The only piece of the puzzle missing is that you don't understand the meaning of "self control", and "mutual" [see my previous posts].[/color]

I have noticed you kept mentioning your wives submission and obedience, so that tells me the lack of desire to come together came from your side. You do know the Bible teaches that couples are NOT to deny one another dont you?

[color="#FF0000"]That's the problem, you don't understand how a couple could mutually [see my previous post for the definition of this] agree to abstain. You obviously dont know self-control and see marriage as simply an institituion of sex. Once you get older, have matured, I'll try and explain it's deeper meanings to you ;-) As I'd already given you the proper context of the scripture that you quoted, and it's very clear that you twisted it like you do every other scripture.[/color]


It can be done via MUTUAL agreement, but this is not something a husband is to demand of a wife and a husband is not to make a wife WAIT SEVERAL YEARS.

[color="#FF0000"]When did I ever say that we demanded it of each other? Rather I NEVER SAID THAT this is a prime example, that you don't know how to read.[/color]

I actualy feel sorry for her wondering what level of rejection she must have felt even if unspoken. Obviously she loves you very much to put up with it.

[color="#FF0000"]This is possibly the worst assumption that you've ever made, you just made yourself look like an idiot, jumping to conclusions based upon what you don't know. Just to help you out, so you don't embarrass yourself more, I never kept nothing from her and she never kept nothing from me. It was a deep spiritual connection that you obviously havn't experienced and so you don't know much about it. Being that you can't wrap your head around the monastic concept, it doesn't surprise me that you can't grasp the spirituality of a marriage, such as mine. Once you learn the spiritual significance of nuns, get at me and I'll help explain the deep spiritual connection that my wife and I share ;-)[/color][/quote]

[Budge]

[quote]

Sorry but America is my home country. I was born and raised here silly sister and it was an American Judge and I definately trust him more then you but moreover, I happen to know the laws very well, and know that for a marriage to be legal, the person marrying the couple and two witnessess have to witness them kissing, simple and plain. If you don't believe so, that's your choice. There's alot that you don't believe, despite the facts and I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you.
[/quote]That judge was totally wrong....

[url="http://family-law.freeadvice.com/divorce_law/divorce-dissolution.htm"]http://family-law.freeadvice.com/divorce_l...dissolution.htm[/url]
[quote]
Annulment

An annulment also ends a marriage, but in a different way than a divorce. A divorce or dissolution ends the marriage as of the date indicated in the final decree. An annulment says that the marriage was legally void from the very beginning. Annulments are usually granted after very short marriages, but if there are children, the children do not become illegitimate because of an annulment.
[b]
Annulments are granted only when a party can show a legal defect that made the marriage invalid. This can include some kind of fraud or misrepresentation, concealment of some important fact,[u] lack of consummation by sexual intercourse[/u][/b], or a misunderstanding between the parties about something crucial to the marriage, like whether or not to have children. See Annulment on the Free Advice Divorce page for more information.[/quote]
[quote]
Sorry, but you have a distorted view of the laws.[/quote]No I do not. EVERY STATE teaches for a marriage to be valid there has to be sexual intercourse.
[quote]

The only piece of the puzzle missing is that you don't understand the meaning of "self control", and "mutual" [see my previous posts].[/quote]

So what were you trying to "prove" with this "self control"? Obviously you have some major issues regarding sex, that even sex in marriage is wrong, if it took you several years to get around to it. I think your wife assented to your desires, out of love for you so wether it was mutual is questionable. I knew of someone once who married a man who struggled with same sex desires, who refused to have sexual intercourse as well for years after the marriage, they ended up seperating in that case.


[quote]That's the problem, you don't understand how a couple could mutually [see my previous post for the definition of this]agree to abstain.[/quote]

It can happen for reasons for health, seperation--military-missionary trip etc. But to do it when young and healthy is not normal. It tells me something was clearly wrong. Couples in love do not simply sit down and say LETS NOT HAVE SEX UNTIL WE HAVE BEEN MARRIED FOR FIVE YEARS. Doing this from the start is not normal.
[quote]
You obviously dont know self-control and see marriage as simply an institituion of sex.[/quote]Sex comes with marriage. Now if you want a best friend, a buddy, a soul mate, fine, but if you want a wife, there has to be that physical connection as well.
[quote]
Once you get older, have matured, I'll try and explain it's deeper meanings to you ;-)[/quote]

You are fortunate your wife hung in there while you forced the two of you to live as celibates instead of a normal married couple. She really had no reason to stay. Even Biblically she could have walked since you were not truly married. I feel sorry for her, surely she felt rejected and deifnitely she was being denied a husband who was willing to offer all parts of himself.
[quote]
When did I ever say that we demanded it of each other? Rather I NEVER SAID THAT this is a prime example, that you don't know how to read.[/quote]You did, from first post.

Otherwise tell us, what was the reason? health, seperation, you both were out on a mission trip where pregnancy could be dangerous?, she could die from getting pregnant and you dont believe in NFP? That is what Im talking about the puzzle pieces missing.

If none of the above then surely it was some social-psycho-sexual issue on your part.

[quote]
This is possibly the worst assumption that you've ever made, you just made yourself look like an idiot, jumping to conclusions based upon what you don't know. Just to help you out, so you don't embarrass yourself more, I never kept nothing from her and she never kept nothing from me. It was a deep spiritual connection that you obviously havn't experienced and so you don't know much about it[/quote].

Im sure you did talk it out. Women are willing to do a lot for love.

And how do you know about my connections to others. I dont discuss my personal life much here, but I do know as far as marriage goes what a good one is about.

[quote]Once you learn the spiritual significance of nuns, get at me and I'll help explain the deep spiritual connection that my wife and I share ;-)[/quote]

Soulmates that never have sex are simply best friends.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Budge' post='1251506' date='Apr 21 2007, 09:01 AM']That judge was totally wrong....

[url="http://family-law.freeadvice.com/divorce_law/divorce-dissolution.htm"]http://family-law.freeadvice.com/divorce_l...dissolution.htm[/url]

[color="#FF0000"]Sorry but I trust a judge alot more then I do your little person info sights.[/color]

No I do not. EVERY STATE teaches for a marriage to be valid there has to be sexual intercourse.

[color="#FF0000"]Sorry but no they don't.[/color]

So what were you trying to "prove" with this "self control"?

[color="#FF0000"]That you don't have none, I guess...[/color]

Obviously you have some major issues regarding sex, that even sex in marriage is wrong, if it took you several years to get around to it.

[color="#FF0000"]A classic case of Budge putting words into people's mouths, I never said that sex inside of marriage is wrong, I just said that sex itself isn't the Sacrament but Marriage is the Sacrament and every point in the Marriage has equal value, something that you repeately deny.[/color]

I think your wife assented to your desires, out of love for you so wether it was mutual is questionable. I knew of someone once who married a man who struggled with same sex desires, who refused to have sexual intercourse as well for years after the marriage, they ended up seperating in that case.

[color="#FF0000"]Here's the trip: You've assumed that I withheld from her, that is not even remotely the truth. You're pretty much came up with this conclusion based upon what? Based upon your lack of knowledge about my marriage. As a matter of fact, you've pretty much pulled it out of your butt [like most everything else you say on this message board]. I've never shared that I withheld from her or she withheld from me, as it's none of your business and I'd repeatedly said that it was a mutual decision [which you can't wrap your head around, because you don't have self control, and don't understand the idea of a couple mutually agreeing with anything, and belief that sex itself is the sacrament, not marriage].[/color]

You did, from first post.

[color="#FF0000"]No I didn't, I never said that I withheld from her, because that's not even remotely the truth[/color]

Otherwise tell us, what was the reason?

[color="#FF0000"]See this is your problem Budge, when people don't provide you with information, you attempt to make your own information up, in order to make your agenda. The reason was simple, we were both deeply in love with each other and with God and chose to spend our nights talking with each other, fasting, reading scriptures and in prayer. I know that such a deep spiritual connection is nearly impossible for you to grasp but please learn to take it for what it is...[/color]

And how do you know about my connections to others. I dont discuss my personal life much here, but I do know as far as marriage goes what a good one is about.
Soulmates that never have sex are simply best friends.

[color="#FF0000"]No you don't know what a good marriage is about, you're a manipulating individual, that doesn't know much about a deep spiritual connection. That manipulates people and if you can't manipulate, you simply make up your own conclusions based upon nothing more then your creative mind. There's so much about the sacrament of marriage that you have to learn, and I wouldn't advise marriage for anyone like you, until after you get deep and intensive psychological help.[/color][/quote]

[thessalonian]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1250934' date='Apr 20 2007, 10:12 PM']marriage is indeed "about" having children. procreation is the PRIMARY end of the sacrament of marriage. you keep acting as though i am denying the spiritual element of the relationship, which i am not. this is crucial to a successful relationship.

however, you seem to be saying that the physical element of marriage - the good which God created so that we could show forth love with our bodies, image Him and be co-creators with Him - is somehow subordinate to that. that is incorrect.
lol and i'm sorry that cs lewis, a respected theologian by both protestant and catholics, is below your standards. would you like me to cite john paul II on the theology of the body. cuz what, he thinks sex is great : (edit, for those called to marriage of course!)[/quote]


It's kinda like saying the main purpose of food tasting good is so we can enjoy the taste. That is certainly a part of eating, ie. giving glory to God for the goodness of food. But it's not the primary purpose. One who enjoys the taste but sticks their finger down their throat will die of hunger.

[thessalonian]

[quote]Maybe in your home country, but thats not true in America. I know that for a fact. In every state in America, that for a marriage to be valid, it has to be consummated, otherwise you can go get an annulment that says you were never married. If your Judge was American, he was wrong.[/quote]

This has generally been the view of the Church but I highly doudt it is law in this country and will ask you to show proof (not that I expect to get any because you've never shown any before for your positions). So does the IRS stop by and check, "oh sorry no joint return for you, you haven't consumated your marriage yet so your not married".

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1251370' date='Apr 21 2007, 08:55 AM']Micah if thats the definition of lust you all are using, I agree then,. It should be avoided.[/quote]
I can't speak for everyone here, but it's the way the Catholic Church sees lust...love is a ordered (meaning that it seeks the things it should) and lust is a disordered desire (meaning it seeks the things it shouldn't).

Lust can also be seen as falling under a violation of the First Commandment in an indirect way. By lusting, a person seeks to use someone as an object for pleasure, rather than to be in communion with someone they love. By extension, lust is using a gift of God in a way God did not intend. Therefore, logically, lust chooses something (a way of treating a person) over God's plan (how you should treat a person) and therefore, in committing lust, a person indirectly is choosing something over God.

Of course, all sins are indirectly violations of the First Commandment, since all sins place one's own will over God's.

[thessalonian]

Budge,

Do you think there will be lust in heaven even among husband and wife? If not then it is sin. If it did not exist before the fall it is sin.

Edited April 21, 2007 by thessalonian

[jckinsman]

I think "Lust in marriage" was the topic! I think the definition of lust can be distorted. What does it really mean? ..........Instead of going on long debates on what constitutes, when a marriage "is a marriage"... We do know this..............God made us..........God gave us a body............God made male........God made Female (so far so good right????) Now..what was God's purpose for "sex"????? Thats not a tough one!?!? PROCREATION .......am I wrong???? Now givin' that, God also gave women a very strong hormone,it Bonds us to our husbands, through sexual intercourse.....and it bonds us to our babies.....through nursing! Thats pretty easy to understand why God made it that way.God made hormones. Ever wonder why the young girl having sex stays with that "stupid" boy that uses her.??HORMONES! Battered wife??? HORMONES! That it why all these women walk away wondering "where did I go wrong?" (I could jump on the soap box here,I'll refrain) The truth is God had a beautiful Plan for married love....Not what the government says....... not what I say.......Not even what the person who has a masters in human sexuality, has to say...we can listen,but what are all of us really hearing? ......... I'am a mother of six (unless GOD has other plans) I love my husband,I love my children ,I love His plan for marriage ........if we listen to him! My husband, raised in a not so good enviorment, could tell you many stories of how the lines of love and lust can get distorted. This is really where a well formed conscience will come in handy.!! If you really want to understand ,a catholic's veiw of this you have to read what Pope John Paul has written on this. Notice I said "UNDERSTAND", meaning, if you really want to argue with us on this, you should understand where we are coming from................ right???????.............If what you are doing in the bedroom makes either of you uncomfortable ,you'd better check your conscience!.............Pray that it is well-formed!

Edited April 21, 2007 by jckinsman

[Budge]

[quote]
See this is your problem Budge, when people don't provide you with information, you attempt to make your own information up, in order to make your agenda. The reason was simple, we were both deeply in love with each other and with God and chose to spend our nights talking with each other, fasting, reading scriptures and in prayer. I know that such a deep spiritual connection is nearly impossible for you to grasp but please learn to take it for what it is...
[/quote]I just asked the question of why?. Im not the guy trying to defend the indefensible.

I still think unless you and your wife were very young--ie via an arranged marriage, or one of those other reasons I listed-health and otherwise, that to forgo relations is not normal.

From what you have written here, you seem to think that those who have sex in marriage seem to lack something. Just helping to back up my claims that there is dysfunctional attitudes towards sex, even sex between married couples within Catholicism.
[quote]

No you don't know what a good marriage is about, you're a manipulating individual, that doesn't know much about a deep spiritual connection.[/quote]

You know I talked about this to a friend, didnt name names, and they said straight out..."He's gay and wanted a beard". Most of the world doesnt see you as normal including Christians so if youre not going to come up with the reason you refused your wife relations for several years beyond sex would have ruined our special "spiritual connection", Im not buying it. A normal healthy hetero man with a normal healthy hetero wife doesnt leave her untouched for YEARS.

[quote]


That manipulates people and if you can't manipulate, you simply make up your own conclusions based upon nothing more then your creative mind.[/quote]Actually I think the dude who has managed to manipulate a woman who deserves a loving husband and all that entails into going without for years, is much more of a master of manipulation then I am.

[quote]
There's so much about the sacrament of marriage that you have to learn, and I wouldn't advise marriage for anyone like you, until after you get deep and intensive psychological help.[/quote]

I have been happily married for years. by the way he thinks you arent right either....

[Budge]

[quote]Do you think there will be lust in heaven even among husband and wife?[/quote]

There isnt any marriage between people in heaven, read your bible...

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Budge' post='1251735' date='Apr 21 2007, 01:51 PM']There isnt any marriage between people in heaven, read your bible...[/quote]
I read the bible most every day. (been missing some lately because work is very busy).

I didn't ask if there was marriage in heaven. I asked if there was lust. Was there lust before the fall? "they were naked and unashamed". Read yours and understand it if you would. Oh wait, you can't, your not Catholic.

I can understand that your not getting this because it is clear that you do not know what lover truly is or understand it. Therefore how could you possibly understand the difference between love and lust?

Blessings

Edited April 21, 2007 by thessalonian