What Do You All Think Of This Hate Crimes Stuff?

[TotusTuusMaria]

[center]J.M.J.[/center]

[quote name='Budge' post='1257778' date='Apr 27 2007, 08:10 AM']Im glad you all agree with me.

But do you all realize the Vatican SUPPORTS HATE CRIME LAWS [even with the fact it could be used against them concievably?]

[url="http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=23515"]http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...ry.php?id=23515[/url]

Try and me tell the below wouldnt entail SOME CURTAILMENT OF SPEECH.

It would be illegal to cricitize ANY RELIGION.

Remember there are those who are offended [like the Islamics who got so upset at your Pope] very easily.

Do you all want the UN controlling speech? The hate crime law pushers love the UN usually here in America.[/quote]

I think it is sad that some Protestants and Catholics want to do violence to each other. Sad indeed! We are suppose to seek truth in love and charity. If we do not have charity we are just noise and we are bad representatives of Christ. God have mercy on those Catholics! Budge, let us pray for peace!

P.S. The Vatican does not support hate crimes.

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Budge' post='1257778' date='Apr 27 2007, 07:10 AM']Im glad you all agree with me.

But do you all realize the Vatican SUPPORTS HATE CRIME LAWS [even with the fact it could be used against them concievably?]

[url="http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=23515"]http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...ry.php?id=23515[/url]

Try and me tell the below wouldnt entail SOME CURTAILMENT OF SPEECH.

It would be illegal to cricitize ANY RELIGION.

Remember there are those who are offended [like the Islamics who got so upset at your Pope] very easily.

Do you all want the UN controlling speech? The hate crime law pushers love the UN usually here in America.[/quote]
what the heck are you talking about?

There is nothing in that article that supports the contention you make here.

They're supporting measures to protect religious freedom and prevent prosecution.

Your twisting of the words of the article to support what you want Catholics to believe is despicable. It is beneath your dignity. Grow up.

[Budge]

I condemn all violence.

BUT THE article I posted above isnt just talking about VIOLENT acts but those of SPEECH...
[quote]The nuncio said that “legitimate criticism” of actions by some religious followers must not become license to “insult or unjust defamation nor into offensive mockery of its revered persons, practices, rites or symbols.”

[u]Religious offense[/u], especially when directed to a minority within a society, is a form of coercion against believers that makes the profession and public practice of religion more difficult, he added.[/quote]


The above remarks about religious offense are not about violent acts but about SPEECH.

Your Pope supposely was "religiously offensive" to some Muslims wasnt he?

Edited April 27, 2007 by Budge

[Sojourner]

we have defamation laws here too

that has long been recognized as a limitation on free speech, for good reason

[Budge]

Im not talking about defamation of individuals but of religions.

They want people not to able to criticize beliefs they believe are untrue.

Some Muslims felt defamed by your Pope.

You all need to be more consistent on this. First you agree with me then you dont.

I want everyone to have freedom of speech. that means with stuff I disagree with even. So that means I support your freedom to write, publish books, and speak even against my religious beliefs.

Be consistent here.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Budge' post='1257797' date='Apr 27 2007, 07:57 AM']Im not talking about defamation of individuals but of religions.

They want people not to able to criticize beliefs they believe are untrue.

Some Muslims felt defamed by your Pope.

You all need to be more consistent on this. First you agree with me then you dont.

I want everyone to have freedom of speech. that means with stuff I disagree with even. So that means I support your freedom to write, publish books, and speak even against my religious beliefs.

Be consistent here.[/quote]
1) I never agreed with you. Read the thread.

2) He's talking about unjust defamation. We can handle any sort of criticism you have of us, just play by the rules

3) You're changing this argument as you make it. First, it's "the Vatican supports hate crimes." Then it's "The Vatican is opposed to free speech." You need to be more consistent. This shifting arguments doesn't reflect well on your ability to debate.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[center]J.M.J.[/center]
[quote name='Budge' post='1257793' date='Apr 27 2007, 08:53 AM']I condemn all violence.

BUT THE article I posted above isnt just talking about VIOLENT acts but those of SPEECH...
The above remarks about religious offense are not about violent acts but about SPEECH.

Your Pope supposely was "religiously offensive" to some Muslims wasnt he?[/quote]


I like how you said "supposedly"... Budge, answer me one thing... did you actually even read the speech given by the Pope for his supposed "insult" to the Muslims?

Be truthful Budge.

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[Budge]

I dont think he was insulting to them.

He just read a quote that they were insulted by,

I talk about Islam openly enough here. Why would I put down your Pope for warning about aspects of islam?

Ask yourself why the UN and the Holy See should be united together on having the UN deal with "religious offense" and what a blow to free speech that would be.

[Budge]

I dont think he was insulting to them.

He just read a quote that they were insulted by.

I talk about Islam openly enough here. Why would I put down your Pope for warning about aspects of islam? That is one thing he got right even if the later prayers in a mosque were horrid.

Ask yourself why the UN and the Holy See should be united together on having the UN deal with "religious offense" and what a blow to free speech that would be.

Notice how this could be abused if the right group is offended enough.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]“Abuse of rights of believers, even outright violence against them, state restrictions, undue impositions and persecution, public insult to religious feelings, unfortunately persist and call for remedy,” he said.

{That one would make it illegal to "offend" anyone about their religion}[/quote]

Budge, the Archbishop's words do not support the statement that you are trying to make. All those things that are listed amount to more than just having an opinion about a particular religion. They amount to 'artists' submerging an image of Christ in a bowl of urine at a London exhibition, vandals smearing pig blood on the doors of synagogues, and Muslims being taunted by other passengers on public transport. One of my friends was alone on a late-night bus recently. Some drunken lads on board the bus were calling out things like, "It's the Taliban! Curry-breath! Raghead! Gonna blow us up?" She has a right to take the bus without being subject to that kind of abuse, and I for one would support legislation that would outlaw it. Freedom of speech has to go hand in hand with responsibility.

[Budge]

[quote]Budge, the Archbishop's words do not support the statement that you are trying to make. All those things that are listed amount to more than just having an opinion about a particular religion. They amount to 'artists' submerging an image of Christ in a bowl of urine at a London exhibition, vandals smearing pig blood on the doors of synagogues, and Muslims being taunted by other passengers on public transport. One of my friends was alone on a late-night bus recently. Some drunken lads on board the bus were calling out things like, "It's the Taliban! Curry-breath! Raghead! Gonna blow us up?" She has a right to take the bus without being subject to that kind of abuse, and I for one would support legislation that would outlaw it. Freedom of speech has to go hand in hand with responsibility.[/quote]

Do you think people should go to jail or be fined or imprisoned for TAUNTS?

It is interesting what groups are protected and those that are not. For example are they going to outlaw anyone screaming HEY FATSO< LARD BUTT! or HEY FOUR EYES! but I betcha if its some homosexuals upset because someone call them a name theyd be taking them instantly.

"some animals are more equal then others"

I once read about Englands Diversity Directoriates, George Orwell couldnt even have come up with a better name, they went out and rounded up 100 people who spoke against homosexuality including some Christians to fine and jail them.
[u]
Vandalism, violence etc, is already against the law.[/u]

Im talking about SPEECH. Our jails are full enough without rounding up every jerk that insults someone.

By the way Im consistent here. Lets say I get on a bus, and have a bunch of jerks say Hey you Bible banging White Trash Hick!

Do I want them to go to jail for it? {if they are violent and try to beat me up, hey that is already against the law}

NO, they are jerks, leave it at that.

I have the freedom of speech to respond.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Budge

[Socrates]

Apples and oranges. Speaking against religious defamation is not the same as supporting "hate crimes" laws giving homosexuals and other sexual deviants special legal protection. Religious persecution is a very real and serious matter in many parts of the world - including against Christians, including against fundamentalist "Bible Christians" like Budge.
Much as Budge will try to twist things to equate the two - they are different matters.

And while Budge's opinion may support an absolute right to "free speech" - to say absolutely anything anywhere - such an opinion is merely an opinion, and is certainly not Biblical doctrine.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]I once read about Englands Diversity Directoriates, George Orwell couldnt even have come up with a better name, they went out and rounded up 100 people who spoke against homosexuality including some Christians to fine and jail them.[/quote]Source and evidence, please.

A diversity directorate is a policy tailored to each establishment (such as a school or a workplace) to ensure equal opportunities. In college, for example, the directorate would ensure anonymous and unbiased marking of examination papers. As each institution or establishment has the right to draw up its own directorate, the system is potentially open to abuse. But most directorates are very helpful things. As a disabled person, I know that I appreciate the anti-discrimination rules that are in place at Cambridge. A lot of our policies here aren't implemented on a national level, which makes life very difficult for me at times.

[quote]Do you think people should go to jail or be fined or imprisoned for TAUNTS?[/quote]

Who said anything about imprisonment? There are different ways to stop people from behaving badly, like community service. A few days of hard work sweeping the streets would teach them not to be so bad-mannered. We pay to use the bus; we should not have to share it with a bunch of foulmouths. And I certainly do think that people should be liable to such punishment for verbal abuse, as it can be just as painful and upsetting as physical assault. People need to learn not to behave like bullies.

Also, please bear in mind that this was a late-night bus, the guys involved were drunk, and my friend was the only woman on board. A few weeks ago a young North London boy was stabbed to death by a group of yobs as he was getting off the bus in a similar incident. In a climate like that, verbal abuse is enough to make anybody feel intimidated. It should be stopped.

Edited April 28, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Budge]

[quote]Apples and oranges. Speaking against religious defamation is not the same as supporting "hate crimes" laws giving homosexuals and other sexual deviants special legal protection. Religious persecution is a very real and serious matter in many parts of the world - including against Christians, including against fundamentalist "Bible Christians" like Budge.
Much as Budge will try to twist things to equate the two - they are different matters.
[/quote]Why? NO they are not.

The homosexuals have their own "religion" as it were, anyhow the religious spectrum also includes Wiccans and out and out Satanists. I guess they could make their claim for religious defamation when a priest preaches against Satan.


[quote]

And while Budge's opinion may support an absolute right to "free speech" - to say absolutely anything anywhere - such an opinion is merely an opinion, and is certainly not Biblical doctrine.[/quote]

I dont believe that someone should be allowed to scream FIRE in a crowded theatre without repercussions.
[b]
but this whole religious defemation stuff is nonsense. Did Jesus say get the government involved when someone insults your religion? or faith?[/b] {No that is the Vatican's historical teaching not Jesus's

By the way the Roman Catholic church INVENTED "HATE CRIME PUNISHMENTS"

"The Vatican, the ORIGINAL punish you for saying something they didn't like crowd" and you can thank Augustine for that policy...

Edited April 29, 2007 by Budge

[Budge]

[quote]QUOTE
I once read about Englands Diversity Directoriates, George Orwell couldnt even have come up with a better name, they went out and rounded up 100 people who spoke against homosexuality including some Christians to fine and jail them.
[b]Source and evidence, please[/b].[/quote]

Sure....

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2457429.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2457429.stm[/url]

I remember the number wrong it wasnt 100, it was 150! and included "racists" too. {this was [b]5[/b] years ago}

Rounded up for speech with exception of the domestic abuse cases.

[quote]

A diversity directorate is a policy tailored to each establishment (such as a school or a workplace) to ensure equal opportunities[/quote].

Sure for some.
[quote]
Do you think people should go to jail or be fined or imprisoned for TAUNTS?


Who said anything about imprisonment? [b]There are different ways to stop people from behaving badly, like community service[/b].[/quote]

Sheesh talk about being a supporter of NANNY government.

"You bad man, you said something naughty, report to the #20 correction station at 8:am pronto and get out your broom says the boomnig voice over the surveillance camera.

I know England is further a long the police state highway, but wow!

[quote]And I certainly do think that people should be liable to such punishment for verbal abuse, as it can be just as painful and upsetting as physical assault. People need to learn not to behave like bullies.[/quote]

one word...WOW.

So someone gets in an argument with you and you want to LOCK em up and get the police involved?

They already HAVE laws against disturbing the peace, and harrasment on the books it seems you want to take things way too far.