Graced Works

[jesussaves]

If anyone wonders why it matters ultimately. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Catholics are always saying that passage means works without God, but works with God can save you. Now, it seems Catholics are saying that works with God cannot save you either. THe last post says you do think the graced works save you.

If ultimately at the end it's by grace that we are saved, but the basis to get the unmerited final grace is to do graced works, I would argue you are essentially earning your salvation. I think the last post says it more even directly though, if you do good works assisted by God's grace, justice demands God give you eternal life.

This is all why I say Catholics like to tip toe around Ephesians, and Romans.
Though I do admit your theology is complicated enough to be tempted to just say, well it must be right...

Edited April 29, 2007 by jesussaves

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1259565' date='Apr 29 2007, 12:49 PM']I choose to say James was talking about the necessity of works as Luther described it, "faith alone, but faith is never alone". So, in a sense, Luther did not beleive in "faith alone", if you understand him correctly. For that reason, I err more on the side of Romans terminology.[/quote]If he didn't believe it, why is it central enough to be one of the five "solas"?

As for the other posters (Katholikos, mortify, Bro. Adam, etc), what an abundance of quotes from Holy Scriptures. I always found it interesting that Our Lord can never be seen supporting the "Faith Alone" doctrine. It seems that the only way to argue Faith Alone is to isolate a few quotes from St. Paul.

A comment regarding the term "graced works". In my mind, there's not much of a difference between these works and the initial "yes" (in evangelical language, "accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior"). In fact, what is the initial "yes" other than a first "graced work" in the life of a Christian? This "yes" opens the door to eternal life (i.e. salvation) for that person. It is a direct result of grace ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians12.htm#v3"]link to 1 Cor 12:3b[/url]):[quote]And no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the holy Spirit.[/quote]Yet, if I asked evangelicals, "What must I do to be saved?" they would answer that I must "accept Jesus as my (personal) Lord and Savior." I don't think that evangelicals are going around telling every potential convert that such a conversion is solely due to the Holy Spirit (as mentioned in 1 Cor 12:3), and has nothing to do with free will. Given that evangelicals aren't making such a big deal out of this, I still don't feel the need to claim that they believe in a works-based religion (i.e. saying "yes" to merit salvation).

But this is what you do. You accuse Catholics of having a works-based religion, because that's what you want to see. I could cite numerous passages in the New Testament and build a much stronger case that the Gospels describe Christianity as a works-based religion (one example is Matt 25, let me know if you want a list). If I had such an agenda, it would be quite easy. I just say this in the hopes of persuading you to not try to infer the worst of Catholicism, especially when its own adherents disagree with the way you characterize their religion.

To wrap up: if you'd like to consider "graced works" (as you call them), let's always keep 1 Cor 12:3 in mind. It reveals the ultimate source of merit. Finally, summarizing St. Thomas Aquinas (in question #2 of the section on merit): [b]No one without grace can merit eternal life.[/b] (see [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2114.htm#2"]link[/url])

[jesussaves]

My working vocabulary has helped me improve the quality of my my google searches, such as this article:
[url="http://www.sxws.com/cwrc-rz/thlarchive/thla-007.php"]http://www.sxws.com/cwrc-rz/thlarchive/thla-007.php[/url]

So does the catholics church teach graced works? I'm not sure of your stance. I want to get that straight before talking about the merit, pardon the pun, of that versus the more typical protestant argument.

Edited April 30, 2007 by jesussaves

[Paddington]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1260148' date='Apr 30 2007, 01:15 AM']So does the catholics church teach graced works? I'm not sure of your stance.[/quote]



First of all, I'm not Catholic. (sorry?)
But, I'm PRETTY SURE you can say that Catholics believe in 'Grace Alone' and 'Graced Works' at the same time.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1260148' date='Apr 29 2007, 11:45 PM']My working vocabulary has helped me improve the quality of my my google searches, such as this article:
[url="http://www.sxws.com/cwrc-rz/thlarchive/thla-007.php"]http://www.sxws.com/cwrc-rz/thlarchive/thla-007.php[/url]

So does the catholics church teach graced works? I'm not sure of your stance. I want to get that straight before talking about the merit, pardon the pun, of that versus the more typical protestant argument.[/quote]Not sure if I understand your question. There are good works that are the fruit of graces given to us. Is this a problem in your eyes?

Turning this around: in your opinion, can a person be saved by the "graced work" of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior? How is this any different from other "graced works"?

Related to this topic: do you believe in OSAS?

Small aside: do you know why R.C. Sproul (a Calvinist) was cited in your link to explain teachings of the Catholic Church? I was a little surprised by that.

[Apotheoun]

The following text presents an Eastern Christian understanding of the nature of salvation as a synergistic infusion into man of the divine energies:

[quote]To share in the divine glory is one way in which the New Testament speaks of participating in the divine life. There is also another way—one that is equally prominent in Scripture, and equally fundamental for the Greek Fathers. One of the most familiar verses of the New Testament is that in which St. Paul urges the Philippians to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” The full passage is as follows: “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you ([i]ho energōn en humin[/i]) both to will and to do ([i]energein[/i]) of his good pleasure" (2:12-13). What is remarkable here is that the exhortation to act is coupled with a reminder that it is God who is acting. Neither negates the other; the Philippians are both free agents responsible for their own salvation, and the arena in which God works to bring about that salvation. St. Paul shows no interest in distinguishing precisely what is contributed by God, and what by the Philippians; he writes as if the whole process were the activity of both.

The English translation of this passage somewhat obscures the force of the Greek, in that ‘worketh’ and ‘to do’ both translate the same Greek verb, [i]energein[/i]. The noun that is cognate to this verb, [i]energeia[/i], is the word from which we derive the term ‘energy.’ By the time of the New Testament it had in some contexts already acquired that meaning. Likewise, although [i]energein[/i] normally means simply to act or to operate, in theological contexts such as this one it often has a further shade of meaning: that of acting in a way that itself imparts energy. That is perhaps why St. Paul and other early Christian authors tend to reserve both terms for the action of supernatural agents (God, angels, or demons), since only such agents are capable of entering as a force into others. Giving this notion full weight, we could render the passage as follows: “it is God who energizes in you both to will and to energize of his good pleasure.” This rendering helps bring out why for St. Paul there is no contradiction in urging the Philippians to do something that he also sees as the work of God. The peculiar nature of God’s activity is that it imparts the energy to do His will; yet this energy must be expressed or “worked out” ([i]katergazesthe[/i]) in order to be effective.

Another passage that speaks of a coalescence of human and divine energy is that in Colossians where Paul refers to himself as “striving according to his [Christ's] working, which worketh in me mightily ([i]agōnizomenos kata tēn energeian autou tēn energoumenēn en emoi en dunamei[/i])” (Col. 1:29). Giving full weight to the connection between [i]energeia[/i] and [i]energein[/i], we could render this, “striving according to his energy, which is being energized in me mightily.” It is important to note that the divine energy here serves two distinct functions. It is at work within Paul, transforming him, so that from this standpoint he is the object of God's activity; at the same time it finds expression in Paul's struggle to promote the Gospel, so that he may also be seen as the agent or conduit through whom God is working. Yet nothing in such external direction prevents his actions from remaining his own. It would be possible to fill out in detail the events in Paul's life that this passage alludes to, for he has left us some vivid descriptions of his various trials and exertions. Not only do they exhibit full engagement and self-control, they do so more than did his actions prior to his conversion. As the story is told in Acts, Saul was trapped in self-deception until God set him free on the road to Damascus. Now the divine energy that works in him is also his own energy, more truly than anything he did was his own before he ceased to “kick against the pricks” (Acts 9:5).

The belief that God is active in human beings is, of course, deeply rooted in the Old Testament. There it is usually God's Word or Spirit that is the vehicle of divine indwelling. These ways of speaking tend to suggest a kind of control from without—most obviously in cases of prophetic inspiration, but also even in cases where the Spirit is present continually and in ordinary actions, as with Kings Saul and David. Paul's use of [i]energeia[/i] and related terms, such as [i]sunergein[/i] and [i]sunergos[/i], shifts the emphasis from one of external control to one of cooperation. This is true even where Paul himself speaks of the Spirit. A passage that would prove particularly important for the Greek Fathers is Paul’s description in I Corinthians of the gifts of the Spirit.

[quote]Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are diversities of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operation ([i]energēmatōn[/i]), but it is the same God which worketh ([i]ho energōn[/i]) all in all . . . For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues; but all these worketh ([i]energei[/i]) that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (12:3-11)[/quote]

This passage begins by asserting that even such an ordinary and voluntary action as calling Jesus lord requires the cooperation of the Spirit. It goes on to list a variety of spiritual gifts, each one an [i]energēma[/i] (something performed) of the Spirit. They include not only extraordinary gifts like the working of miracles, but also more ordinary qualities such as faith and the “word of wisdom.” Again there is no dividing line between the natural and the supernatural. Any believer is called to a life of continual cooperation with the Spirit, a cooperation that can manifest itself in any number of ways both exceptional and mundane.

[. . .][/quote]

Click the link in order to read the whole article: [url="http://www.uky.edu/~dbradsh/papers/Divine%20Glory%20and%20Divine%20Energies.doc"]The Divine Glory and the Divine Energies[/url] by Dr. David Bradshaw

[The Joey-O]

Not to add to the problem but, the Council of Trent and the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification put out by Roman Catholic and (ELCA???) Lutherans contradict:

[quote] [i]Council of Trent[/i] Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."[/quote]

[quote] [i]Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification[/i] 37. We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. Since Christians struggle against sin their entire lives, this consequence of justification is also for them an obligation they must fulfill. Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.[/quote]

We were talking in class about how we could either understand that the Catholic Church came to a "fuller understanding of the Luther position" on works as fruits of justification or we can say that the Joint Declaration made at least one misstep. I don't know what to do with it. I did think it was pertinent to this discussion, however.

[The Joey-O]

I talked to a professor about this. He said that Avery Dulles wrote a good article in First Things about this very subject. I haven't read it yet, because I'm still in class. Here's the link to what I think is the article my prof was talking about: [url="http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=3248"]http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=3248[/url]

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='The Joey-O' post='1260632' date='Apr 30 2007, 12:58 PM']I talked to a professor about this. He said that Avery Dulles wrote a good article in First Things about this very subject. I haven't read it yet, because I'm still in class. Here's the link to what I think is the article my prof was talking about: [url="http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=3248"]http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=3248[/url][/quote]

Unfortunately, Cardinal Dulles does not refer specifically to paragraph 37 of the declaration. The Vatican website does have an long appendix which digs deeper into the meaning of each section of the declaration, including a discussion of paragraph 37 and Canon 24 from the session at Trent. Here is the link:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontific...aration_en.html[/url]

Edited April 30, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1260747' date='Apr 30 2007, 02:17 PM']Unfortunately, Cardinal Dulles does not refer specifically to paragraph 37 of the declaration. The Vatican website does have an long appendix which digs deeper into the meaning of each section of the declaration, including a discussion of paragraph 37 and Canon 24 from the session at Trent. Here is the link:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontific...aration_en.html[/url][/quote]

Thanks, it was really helpful for me.

[mortify]

JS said,

[quote]So, you get eternal life by the demands of justice, "good enough".[/quote]I don't understand what you mean here, if you mean we merit heaven you are wrong. Although in a justified state we can merit something from God it doesn't mean merit is necessary for salvation, do you see the difference?

[quote]Catholics are always saying that passage means works without God, but works with God can save you. Now, it seems Catholics are saying that works with God cannot save you either. THe last post says you do think the graced works save you.[/quote]

What saves us is this: God becoming man and meriting our salvation. We inherit the Merit of Christ when the Holy Ghost remakes into Partakers of Divinity, and we become Sons of God. What a son merits in this state will only further their glory in heaven or aid them on the road to salvation, they can't merit what is already their inheritance (so long as they remain Children of God, because strangers do not receive the Lord's inheritance).


So yes, a justified person can merit something from God but being justified means you already have a place in heaven.

[Apotheoun]

It is important to remember the overall structure of the "Joint Declaration"; for example paragraph 37 is intended as a brief statement in which the two sides (Catholic and Lutheran) say what it is that they agree on, while the two paragraphs following it (nos. 38 and 39) give the Catholic interpretation and the Lutheran interpretation respectively of paragraph in question. In other words, a Catholic must read paragraph 37 in the light of paragraph 38, which asserts that ". . . good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened."

Now, that said, I must admit that I do not really care much for the "Joint Declaration," but my disdain for it is mainly based on its superficial nature. As an Eastern Catholic I see salvation as a process of divinization ([font="Symbol"]qewsiV[/font]), which is achieved by an infusion of God's own energy ([font="Symbol"]energeia[/font]) into man, but which also necessarily involves the cooperation of the human person's own will and energy ([font="Symbol"]qelhma[/font] and [font="Symbol"]energeia[/font]).

[mortify]

Apotheon, I believe that is the West's understanding as well, although in different terms.

[Apotheoun]

The doctrine of [i]theosis[/i] should at least have been mentioned in the "Joint Declaration," but sadly it was not; and -- as a consequence -- I attach little significance to the document.

[jesussaves]

I do acknowledge, earning by justice merit to increase in sanctification/justification is not necessarily wrong. The problem, is that at the end, it seems like the catholic doctrine says you have to be good enough. I acknowledge nothing presented so far dictates that, necesarily. I think catholic theology in general teaches that, and likos' quote and thread points that out.


[quote]One effect of “sanctifying grace” is the power of merit, i.e., the capacity to win heaven as a reward. Now, if grace is gratuitous (as its name indicates), and merit is an effect of grace, then merit too is gratuitous. But how is this so? As a plethora of biblical passages indicate, there is a direct connection between works performed and an individual’s future standing in heaven.[/quote]

If they mean heaven/sanctification/justification is being put into you, I have no problem with that. And I have no problem with the idea of you get more in heaven if you've been good. The passage and catholic theology seems to say you have to be good enough, as if you're looking at an plant, (willing to take a smaller plant bc of it did what it could, younger christian), in deciding whether to buy it. The alternative prot theory would be you have to increase and grow in justification/sanctification, but you're not being picked because you are a good apple, but because of Jesus' final unwarranted grace.

You're not earning a final unmerited grace, as a free gift you're simply getting a final unmerited grace and you happened (and necessarily so) to be growing in all that all the while.



perhaps catholic theology is silent on the final grace, but that's sure what it seems like.

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1266265' date='May 6 2007, 07:12 PM']I do acknowledge, earning by justice merit to increase in sanctification/justification is not necessarily wrong. The problem, is that at the end, it seems like the catholic doctrine says you have to be good enough. I acknowledge nothing presented so far dictates that, necesarily. I think catholic theology in general teaches that, and likos' quote and thread points that out.
If they mean heaven/sanctification/justification is being put into you, I have no problem with that. And I have no problem with the idea of you get more in heaven if you've been good. The passage and catholic theology seems to say you have to be good enough, as if you're looking at an plant, (willing to take a smaller plant bc of it did what it could, younger christian), in deciding whether to buy it. The alternative prot theory would be you have to increase and grow in justification/sanctification, but you're not being picked because you are a good apple, but because of Jesus' final unwarranted grace.

You're not earning a final unmerited grace, as a free gift you're simply getting a final unmerited grace and you happened (and necessarily so) to be growing in all that all the while.
perhaps catholic theology is silent on the final grace, but that's sure what it seems like.[/quote]

I have a protestant friend who I discussed a similar issue with. We were talking about the differences between Sanctification and Justification, the role of the Spirit in atonement, blasphemey of the Holy Spirit, etc. While this conversation was interesting and useful to us, it was off the cuff and very, very informal. So, I won't share the whole thing. However, one of the conclusions we came to was that refusing Sanctification was tantamount to a rejection of one's Justification. It was not to say that we were justified by our own merit or that we were sanctified by our own merit. Rather, the will allows Sanctification in a more on-going way. The Holy Spirit provides the power and the "good" therein, so long as we continually say "yes" to Him. That's how we came to the conclusion that one "merits" Sanctification. It's not meriting in the same sense as "earning", more like "continually allowing".

Again, this is informal language that a friend and I used to come to an understanding. Take it with a grain of salt.

[mortify]

JS,

[quote]I do acknowledge, earning by justice merit to increase in sanctification/justification is not necessarily wrong. The problem, is that at the end, it seems like the catholic doctrine says you have to be good enough.[/quote]Do you mean you have to be good to receive grace? Because grace is gratuitous, it has nothing to do with our state prior to being called by God, it has everything to do with God's love an mercy. Why some outpace others spiritually is because they are more receptive to Grace, they are like the soft soil that allows the seed to penetrate and grow, or the wind that moves where ever it is directed, they totally yield themselves to God and so God works wonders through them. It is important to emphasize that whatever a person merits in a justified state is because the Holy Ghost Himself gave him the energy to do so, it is not by man's own effort because we can do nothing without Jesus. And think how marvelous that is, God gives us the grace to perform the good works He rewards!

[quote]You're not earning a final unmerited grace, as a free gift you're simply getting a final unmerited grace and you happened (and necessarily so) to be growing in all that all the while.
perhaps catholic theology is silent on the final grace, but that's sure what it seems like.[/quote]

It's not about meriting the final grace to get into heaven, if you are in a justified state heaven is already yours.