Divorce In The Church

[Era Might]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1263037' date='May 3 2007, 12:16 AM']If you want something closer, then let me give you more information

[code]St. John Chrysostom emphisizes, a second marriage is not in itself forbidden, "for it is not the union that is objectionable, but the multitude of cares that attend it." [Homily VII Timothy iii.1-7, NPNFI, Vol 13, p. 503][/code][/quote]
Thank you for the citation. I found it online, and here is the fuller context:

[quote]For “she that liveth in pleasure is dead whilst she liveth.” (1 Tim. v. 6.) If remaining a widow, thou wouldest have the same pomp, the same show, the same attire, as thou hadst while thy husband was living, it were better for thee to marry. For it is not the union that is objectionable, but the multitude of cares that attend it. But that which is not wrong, thou dost not: but that which is not indifferent, which is liable to blame, in that thou involvest thyself. On this account “some have turned aside after Satan,” because they have not been able to live properly as widows.[/quote]
Here St. John Chrysostom is speaking of widows, who are allowed to remarry in the Catholic Church, because the Sacramental bond ends in death. This is why context and citations are so important, this passage has nothing to do with divorce and remarriage, but with widowers.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1263059' date='May 2 2007, 10:42 PM']Thank you for the citation. I found it online, and here is the fuller context:
Here St. John Chrysostom is speaking of widows, who are allowed to remarry in the Catholic Church, because the Sacramental bond ends in death. This is why context and citations are so important, this passage has nothing to do with divorce and remarriage, but with widowers.[/quote]

What about the other quote: As I'd mentioned, I wasn't using this to justify the proper interpretation of Jesus's words, but to prove that the early church fathers didn't agree in unison [as my other quotes you're also welcome to analyize].

but on a short angle... you probably got me in a hole [as I was morely playing the devil's advocate]. Dang it...

Note: I'm pretty sure that the Oriental Orthodox as a whole don't allow remarriage and practice the same as the Roman Catholic Church

reza

Edited May 3, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[Era Might]

I wasn't trying to just throw quote for quote. I realize that books could be written about this topic. But, I think the overwhelming witness of the early Church shows that marriage was considered a permanent institution throughout life, and that Our Lord's words permitted separation only, not remarriage. For us, this is important, because the Fathers are the chief guardians of the faith. Pope Leo XIII explains how Catholics understand the role of the Fathers:

[quote]His teaching, and that of other Holy Fathers, is taken up by the Council of the Vatican, which, in renewing the decree of Trent declares its "mind" to be this - that "in things of faith and morals, belonging to the building up of Christian doctrine, that is to be considered the true sense of Holy Scripture which has been held and is held by our Holy Mother the Church, whose place it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the Scriptures; and therefore that it is permitted to no one to interpret Holy Scripture against such sense or also against the unanimous agreement of the Fathers." By this most wise decree the Church by no means prevents or restrains the pursuit of Biblical science, but rather protects it from error, and largely assists its real progress.

...

The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith - what they are unanimous in.

--Encyclical Letter "Providentissimus Deus"[/quote]
The Fathers did sometimes hold opinions which were later corrected by the Church. However, what we believe is that the Fathers cannot err when they agree overwhelmingly and firmly on a point of faith and morals. This is why the Fathers are so important to the Catholic understanding of marriage, because they illuminate our interpretation of Scripture. The words of Our Lord speak only of divorce for grave reasons, not remarriage, and this interpretation is validated by the Fathers.

I think the best thing we can take from this discussion is to look to the Fathers for ourselves. We may not resolve our disagreement, but hopefully we can study further to test which understanding of marriage is more true to the early Church and the text of Scripture itself.

Peace.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1263106' date='May 3 2007, 05:09 AM']I wasn't trying to just throw quote for quote. I realize that books could be written about this topic. But, I think the overwhelming witness of the early Church shows that marriage was considered a permanent institution throughout life, and that Our Lord's words permitted separation only, not remarriage. For us, this is important, because the Fathers are the chief guardians of the faith. Pope Leo XIII explains how Catholics understand the role of the Fathers:
The Fathers did sometimes hold opinions which were later corrected by the Church. However, what we believe is that the Fathers cannot err when they agree overwhelmingly and firmly on a point of faith and morals. This is why the Fathers are so important to the Catholic understanding of marriage, because they illuminate our interpretation of Scripture. The words of Our Lord speak only of divorce for grave reasons, not remarriage, and this interpretation is validated by the Fathers.

I think the best thing we can take from this discussion is to look to the Fathers for ourselves. We may not resolve our disagreement, but hopefully we can study further to test which understanding of marriage is more true to the early Church and the text of Scripture itself.

Peace.[/quote]

Naw I'm wit ya man, I was really just being antagonistic, play devil's advocate, that kinda thang. As I mentioned, Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics agree on this issue [as re-marriage isn't allowed in our churches either]. I actually should be thanking you, cause I'd previously thought that we did allow divorce, and this got me to review what our church holds to be true. As I'd mentioned, I never had to deal with divorce issues, so I'm not very familiar with it, but this is got me thinking. Normally I go wit what the church fathers wrote also [as it's what led me to Coptic Orthodoxy], but for the sake of discussion, I decided to push the envelope and in your case, it's good that you know your stuff, cause you cornered me multiple times, but for the sake of trying to push the envelope for a hopefully good discussion, I avoided it to try and get the other side, in which apparently it didn't work well for me.

Reza

Edited May 3, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1263109' date='May 3 2007, 08:19 AM']As I mentioned, Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics agree on this issue [as re-marriage isn't allowed in our churches either]. I actually should be thanking you, cause I'd previously thought that we did allow divorce, and this got me to review what our church holds to be true.[/quote]Now, I'm utterly confused.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1263116' date='May 3 2007, 05:47 AM']Now, I'm utterly confused. [/quote]

It's pretty simple... we agree

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1263664' date='May 4 2007, 12:01 AM']It's pretty simple... we agree[/quote]We're not supposed to agree on the debate table!

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1263749' date='May 3 2007, 10:04 PM']We're not supposed to agree on the debate table! [/quote]

yeah I was trying to make us not agree [playing devils advocate] but it didn't work... I got cornered by the very theology that I agree with... [go figure?]. I even shared the convo wit my wife and she was like, "why are you trying to justify a doctrine that you don't agree with... there's a reason why you don't agree with it".