Non-catholics!

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1263026' date='May 3 2007, 12:58 AM']I guess that's one method to justifying it... [/quote]Kind of dismissive...I do hope you've had the opportunity to read the links I've provided.

BTW, for the sake of completeness, it should be mentioned that "Universal Bishop" has never been used as a title for the pope, and one cannot find the term on the Vatican website. The only place I could find it was on pages (such as those at Catholic.com) which referred to Pope St. Gregory the Great's epistle.

For a little more reading, see:
1) Pope John Paul's Pastores Gregis: [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_20031016_pastores-gregis_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...-gregis_en.html[/url]

Specifically, read the section called: [i]The collegial nature of the episcopal ministry[/i]

2) Vatican II's Christus Dominus: [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651028_christus-dominus_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_council...dominus_en.html[/url]

These are faithful to the both the dignity of the office of the bishop and the primacy of the Roman See, which can be seen when taking Pope St. Gregory the Great's writings as a whole (i.e. not isolating particular phrases without context).

Edited May 3, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[carrdero]

[quote name='prose' post='1262675' date='May 2 2007, 04:42 PM']Can you name ten things you absolutely can not accept in the Catholic Church?

I am guessing these will come up:

Mary, the papacy, reconciliation, faith and works relationship....

Are there more?[/quote]

I saw the exclamation mark in the title and thought it was urgent. (phew) I'm just glad everything is alright.

[Budge]

1. First and foremost, Rome's diminishment of Scripture, putting Magisterium and their traditions on the same level as scripture. For any truly born again Christian who loves God's Word. {Jesus is the WORD--and that means the WORD too in scripture} this dismissal hits home.

2. Catholics have scripture chained away from their hearts being told that only their experts can understand it. The interpetation lie.

3. The interfaith movement, in fact I have been studying it and preaching against it online for years. {I include the Prots who believe this way}

4. The fact that Catholicism makes the cross insufficient...{adding sacraments and more}
instead of adhereing to the true gospel of grace. Jesus died for us and FINISHED THE JOB.
I know when I became saved, that Jesus now means everything to me.

5. Purgatory, I believe it is really hell.

6. Marian promotions. Mary is in heaven, but the Mary as presented by Rome is NOT the humble Mary of the Bible.

7. The Papacy...do not believe that is Biblical.

8. Rome's love of the world, fornication of kings and joining with globalist elites and UN.

9. Amillenialism and dismissal of Bible Prophecy.

10. The Eucharist, actually this should be higher on the list, I believe it is idolatry and what is used to keep poor folks in bondage.



and you all have heard many more things I disagree with.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Budge

[prose]

That is really interesting. I find in here that most of the debates are about Mary, the pope, sola fide, and sola scriptura. I think it is good to hear other areas of discrepancy.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Budge' post='1263129' date='May 3 2007, 09:53 AM']1. First and foremost, Rome's diminishment of Scripture, putting Magisterium and their traditions on the same level as scripture. For any truly born again Christian who loves God's Word. {Jesus is the WORD--and that means the WORD too in scripture} this dismissal hits home.
...[/quote]
So... you worship the bible? I KNEW IT!... (hahaha.. that is an apologetics nono...)

[Captain_Fantastic]

[quote name='prose' post='1262675' date='May 2 2007, 04:42 PM']Can you name ten things you absolutely can not accept in the Catholic Church?[/quote]

1. Judgmentalism
2. Lack of Tolerance
3. Humane Vitae
4. Transubstantiation
5. Papacy
6. Assumption of Mary
7. Christological issues including the Trinity
8. Confession
9. Strong heirarchy, and the hypocrisy of many in that heirarchy.
10. Paedophile priests who are transferred by their superiors to escape the strong arm of justice.

Captain
-agnostic-

[Budge]

Captain Fantastic,

I used to be an unbeliever, humanist pagan in the UU, [Unitarian Universalist Association] also went through my agnostic phase.

Here is my suggestion for you, get a good KJV, and just read for yourself what is in there.

Do NOT let the Catholic Church define what is Christianity for you or what Jesus taught, find out for yourself right in scripture.

I rejected what I thought was "Christiantiy"

Christianity is not about people like a heirarchy lording over people or church membership, or phariseeical rules, or canon law but a relationship with Jesus Christ.

[Guest eahaddix]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1263486' date='May 3 2007, 07:44 PM'][quote name='Budge' post='1263129' date='May 3 2007, 09:53 AM']
1. First and foremost, Rome's diminishment of Scripture, putting Magisterium and their traditions on the same level as scripture. For any truly born again Christian who loves God's Word. {Jesus is the WORD--and that means the WORD too in scripture} this dismissal hits home.[/quote]

So... you worship the bible? I KNEW IT!... (hahaha.. that is an apologetics nono...)[/quote]

[color="#8B0000"][size=3][font="Arial"]Yes, we should not make Biblical Scripture an idol, as KJV-Onlyists make it. However, according to the [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm"]CCC[/url], is not Biblical Scripture the written expression[url="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/expression"][def. 1b(1)][/url] of the divine Word himself, as the Word himself is the eternally begotten expression[url="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/expression"][def. 1b(1)][/url] of God the Father (Paragraphs [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/102.htm"]#110[/url], [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/65.htm"]#65[/url], and [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/254.htm"]#254[/url] of the CCC)?

So then, Biblical Scripture is literally part of the Word himself, whom you worship, yes?[/font][/size][/color]

Edited May 5, 2007 by eahaddix

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='Budge' post='1264652' date='May 4 2007, 08:16 PM']Captain Fantastic,

I used to be an unbeliever, humanist pagan in the UU, [Unitarian Universalist Association] also went through my agnostic phase.

Here is my suggestion for you, get a good KJV, and just read for yourself what is in there.

Do NOT let the Catholic Church define what is Christianity for you or what Jesus taught, find out for yourself right in scripture.

I rejected what I thought was "Christiantiy"

Christianity is not about people like a heirarchy lording over people or church membership, or phariseeical rules, or canon law but a relationship with Jesus Christ.[/quote]



A "good KJV"?


Are there bad KJV's around? I don't use the KJV that much anymore for it uses alot of words we don't use today and after being in debates with Oneness groups and Seventhday Adventists I think it is best if people move on to more updated standard Bibles. Alot of groups come up with weird and wrong doctrines from the KJV.





INLOVE Jnorm

Your problem might be the KJV itself. Try the NASB or at least the NKJV

Edited May 6, 2007 by jnorm888

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='eahaddix' post='1264854' date='May 5 2007, 03:14 AM']So... you worship the bible? I KNEW IT!... (hahaha.. that is an apologetics nono...)

[color="#8B0000"][size=3][font="Arial"]Yes, we should not make Biblical Scripture an idol, as KJV-Onlyists make it. However, according to the [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm"]CCC[/url], is not Biblical Scripture the written expression[url="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/expression"][def. 1b(1)][/url] of the divine Word himself, as the Word himself is the eternally begotten expression[url="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/expression"][def. 1b(1)][/url] of God the Father (Paragraphs [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/102.htm"]#110[/url], [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/65.htm"]#65[/url], and [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/254.htm"]#254[/url] of the CCC)?

So then, Biblical Scripture is literally part of the Word himself, whom you worship, yes?[/font][/size][/color][/quote]
Unlike some, I will budge to give a reply to this comment on one of my previous comments (hahaha finally I get to play on words!). I think it is a thought provoking statement. One might think it is a straight up answer but I have to say that I need to think about it and pray about it. I was really being sarcastic. Anywho, I revere the actual print on the page because it is compiled by the Church to help spread the Gospel of Christ, and is not the sole source of doctrine. Taking it that way is pushing a form of idolatry in itself. That is sort of what I meant.... though I WAS being sarcastic... In short, I worship the God who inspired this word, that is I worship the Word, not the other word...

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Captain_Fantastic' post='1264444' date='May 4 2007, 04:00 PM']3. Humane Vitae

7. Christological issues including the Trinity


Captain
-agnostic-[/quote]

Could you explain these 2 sir? if not here, in PM?

A super-Evangelical

[Guest 基督耶蘇]

I'm currently on my way to becoming a Catholic, and I myself can't find anything I don't accept.

But I am constantly hearing from people who think Catholics believe the accidents themselves are changed through transubstantiation. Ie people who think the Catechism teaches the host becomes physical human flesh.

That bit is a surprisingly common misconception, so add it to your list right next to bits like

[quote]4. The fact that Catholicism makes the cross insufficient...{adding sacraments and more}
instead of adhereing to the true gospel of grace. Jesus died for us and FINISHED THE JOB.
I know when I became saved, that Jesus now means everything to me.[/quote]

[jeffpugh]

The accidents do become Christ... and I don't think quoting budge here is what you may exactly think you mean. The cross is not insufficient. It is the altar in which the priest/victim Christ spilled His blood upon as an eternal, perpetuating sacrifice. I don't know how much more sufficient that can be...

[Guest 基督耶蘇]

I'm sorry I must have said that in the wrong way, what I mean is people with the idea that the accidents become physical human flesh, organs, etc.

Also when I made that quote I was intending to imply that like it is a misconception of some that transubstantiation means a physical metamorphoses of bread into human organs , it's also a misconception that Catholics believe the cross is insufficient.

I'm truly sorry I surely must have said that poorly before.

[Paddington]

[quote name='基督耶蘇' post='1267582' date='May 8 2007, 12:12 AM']I'm sorry I must have said that in the wrong way, what I mean is people with the idea that the accidents become physical human flesh, organs, etc.[/quote]

I've never heard of anybody thinking that.

[N/A Gone]

In my understanding, you need to look at this with an aristolian (sp) outlook. The essence changes into BBSD, but the attributes remain. So it is the BBSD, but it appears as the bread. sounds kinda weird, but thats why it is understood as a mystery

[Guest 基督耶蘇]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1267596' date='May 7 2007, 10:55 PM']I've never heard of anybody thinking that.[/quote]

I think a similar question came up on the last episode of "web of faith". Something a long the lines of "When we receive the eucharist are we eating all of the body of Christ, even the intestines and eyeballs ..." And she went on from there.

Father Trigilio gave a nice answer explaining transubstantiation, and where the "over accidental" understanding as he called it began.

Maybe that will be on in rerun and people can catch it.

I know a couple prots who don't accept the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist because they think if the bread isn't physically changing into human meat then nothing has happened. It's a misunderstanding of substance, and a lack of faith in the sacrament Jesus instituted during the Last Supper.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='基督耶蘇' post='1267582' date='May 7 2007, 10:42 PM']I'm sorry I must have said that in the wrong way, what I mean is people with the idea that the accidents become physical human flesh, organs, etc.

Also when I made that quote I was intending to imply that like it is a misconception of some that transubstantiation means a physical metamorphoses of bread into human organs , it's also a misconception that Catholics believe the cross is insufficient.

I'm truly sorry I surely must have said that poorly before.[/quote]

It's quite alright. It's amazing though with one of the Eucharistic "super" miracles (the Eucharist is a miracle after all, but there are some very special ones), the bread and wine become and look like flesh and blood. There was a scientific study on one of the unsubstantiated wafers and it is said to be the flesh of a human [b]heart[b/]. The wine that turned to blood and looked like blood had the same DNA as the flesh. I assume the DNA is the same as the blood on the shroud. It is amazing stuff. I will get more details on the specific miracle later, as soon as I find where I read it... it's on paper around my place some where...

Anyways, just to clarify, I understand what you say, and I do not believe the Eucharist becomes human organs, but it is comforting to think that he is giving his heart in the Eucharist.

Hopefully I have not caused too much confusion. If I have, ask one of these other knowledgeable people here on Phatmass *cough*Raphael*cough*.

God Bless †

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[hoosieranna]

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