Notion Of Limbo Isn't Closed, Expert Says:

[kafka]

My understanding of the Limbo of the Fathers is that it is an upper level of purgatory where prenatals and unbaptised babies are prepared for Heaven. I believe that they are mystically baptised before their deaths. In other words they are infused with sanctifying grace by God in a mystical baptism. I believe this is fitting since the reason they die so young is they are victims of the sins of men. Therefore to a certain extent they share in the victimhood of Christ by being mystically baptised, by being in the state of grace, and by dying such an unfortunate premature death.

Edited May 7, 2007 by kafka

[Chiquitunga]

Hey, Aloysius, I get your point on the bad media coverage. Here's a small article on the Irish Abroad site that is clearly wrong - [url="http://www.irishabroad.com/news/irishpost/news/UnbaptisedbabylimboisabolishedbyPope010507.asp"]Unbaptised baby limbo is abolished by Pope[/url]

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1266081' date='May 6 2007, 12:51 PM']The Catechism only states concerning this matter that unbaptized children are "entrusted to God's mercy." (which is, as we known, [i]great[/i] and unfathomable)[/quote]
I slightly misquote the Catechism here. Here's the actual article, for reference:

[quote][b]1261[/b] As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.[/quote]

[Aloysius]

[quote name='kafka' post='1267018' date='May 7 2007, 04:22 PM']My understanding of the Limbo of the Fathers is that it is an upper level of purgatory where prenatals and unbaptised babies are prepared for Heaven. I believe that they are mystically baptised before their deaths. In other words they are infused with sanctifying grace by God in a mystical baptism. I believe this is fitting since the reason they die so young is they are victims of the sins of men. Therefore to a certain extent they share in the victimhood of Christ by being mystically baptised, by being in the state of grace, and by dying such an unfortunate premature death.[/quote]
the limbo of the fathers was part of "sheol", the abode of the dead. it is referred to in the Old Testament as "The Bosom of Abraham" and it is where the just who lived prior to Christ went to await Christ's coming; they were not being purified or prepared for heaven, they were waiting. Christ opened that "limbo" and the souls were given the opportunity at that point to either accept or reject Him, to go to heaven or the hell of the damned. but it was a part of "hell", just not the "hell of the damned"... these are two different concepts, which is why in the creed we say Jesus "descended into hell", it was not the hell of the eternally damned that he descended to, but the edge, the 'limbo'

the limbo of the fathers is no more. Christ came and opened it, it ceases to be a place of resting for anyone.

any type of limbo as it exists now is up for discussion; but "limbo" is, by definition, the edge of the abode of the dead, the edge of hell. I posit that limbo is not the edge of a hell of the damned, because I do not believe any damnation goes on in it, but it is the edge of hell which is the abode of the dead.

[kafka]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1267278' date='May 7 2007, 06:11 PM']the limbo of the fathers was part of "sheol", the abode of the dead. it is referred to in the Old Testament as "The Bosom of Abraham" and it is where the just who lived prior to Christ went to await Christ's coming; they were not being purified or prepared for heaven, they were waiting. Christ opened that "limbo" and the souls were given the opportunity at that point to either accept or reject Him, to go to heaven or the hell of the damned. but it was a part of "hell", just not the "hell of the damned"... these are two different concepts, which is why in the creed we say Jesus "descended into hell", it was not the hell of the eternally damned that he descended to, but the edge, the 'limbo'

the limbo of the fathers is no more. Christ came and opened it, it ceases to be a place of resting for anyone.

any type of limbo as it exists now is up for discussion; but "limbo" is, by definition, the edge of the abode of the dead, the edge of hell. I posit that limbo is not the edge of a hell of the damned, because I do not believe any damnation goes on in it, but it is the edge of hell which is the abode of the dead.[/quote]

Aloysius,

I have an interesting reply to what you say Aloysius. Certainly the idea and place called Limbo does exist. It is a part of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, yet I would say that up until recently the Church has not had a clear understanding of it, much like the Immaculate Conception wasnt always clearly understood and defined until Pius IX. Even Aquinas did not comprehend it yet he believed it. As a matter of fact it was John Duns Scotus who helped develop a clearer understanding of it.

I dont have time to type up my whole understanding of Limbo now, but I will get back to you either this evening or tommorrow.


There are thousands of truths as yet undiscovered within the ancient Deposit of Faith: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

[Aloysius]

yes, but limbo cannot be considered part of purgatory. it's either purgatory or it's limbo... but if you want to describe a part of purgatory you can't take the term "limbo" because it just doesn't jive with the meaning of the word.

the "limbo of the fathers" is definitively and dogmatically defined as having existed prior to Christ, and no longer existing after His coming.

otherwise, what types of punishment are at the edge "limbo" of hell, or is the edge of hell devoid of all punishment, and who goes to the edge of hell are up-for-debate. of course, it is definitively taught that original sin alone will send one to some level of hell, and I think if it's truly original sin alone, you'll be at the very edge and there will be no punishment.

[Tindomiel]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1266081' date='May 6 2007, 03:51 PM']I haven't read the ITC document yet, but here's another article concerning it: [url="http://www.catholic.org/printer_friendly.php?id=23842&section=Cathcom"]Limbo reflects 'unduly restrictive view of salvation,' Vatican theological commission says[/url]

The Catechism only states concerning this matter that unbaptized children are "entrusted to God's mercy." (which is, as we known, [i]great[/i] and unfathomable)

Personally I think that as God wills the salvation of all people, as we know from Scripture and the Catechism, He would affect the Sacrament of Baptism in a mystical way for these persons, who had no means of obtaining it in the ordinary way themselves. God made us to be united with Him.

I believe in the possibility of Limbo, but if this is so, I believe the gates of Heaven will be opened for them as they were for the souls of the just in the abode of the dead.

One thing I was thinking concerning the Justice of God, is that it doesn't seem just that a child killed by abortion, and thus robbed of the ability to obtain the Sacrament of Baptism, would be denied entrance into Heaven - while the one who performed the abortion still has the chance of attaining it.

Personally, I believe God will open the gates of Paradise to these little ones, as the example the ITC used of God's love of them: "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for thus is the kingdom of God." (Luke 18:16)

If there was no need to further develop this teaching, than the ITC wouldn't have met on this. Just from skimming the article, they sure seem to have come up with many reasons to hope for their salvation.[/quote]

Well said. This is basically my opinion.


[quote name='Aloysius' post='1266193' date='May 6 2007, 06:09 PM']That was one of the articles I didn't like and why I am glad to now have the actual Document.[/quote]
I know what you mean about the articles. The one in our paper claimed that the Church had changed a doctrine, which is, as we all know, a ridiculous idea.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1266193' date='May 6 2007, 06:09 PM']Right away when they start saying stuff like "nowadays we have a better understanding of God's mercy" I tune them out and consider them chronological snobs. As if Aquinas didn't know of the immense mercies of God. As if Augustine didn't understand that God is infinitely merciful and desiring of the salvation of all. As if only the post 1960 Catholics understand God's mercy well enough to be able to declare these ancient pious beliefs "too harsh" and "not compatible with God's mercy". Please. Sure, you can speculate and hope and all that jazz as the Church is starting to point towards, but do not ridicule the older beliefs as if they just didn't understand this secret knowledge we've finally been enlightened about.[/quote]
Yes, they did understand God's mercy, and the liberal media and clergy do grossly exaggerate when they claim that nowadays we have a monopoly on that concept. However, I would have to say that mercy has become a much more specific focus in this age. Every era in the Church really has seen its understanding of certain theological concepts grow beyond the most generous expectations. I think that Pope John Paul II, and his efforts to remind us "Do not be afraid," as well as the message of Divine Mercy we received through Saint Faustina have really brought mercy more towards the forefront. At least in the minds of individual Catholics.

And remember that Augustine and Aquinas weren't infallible, brilliant as they were. Aquinas, for example, couldn't accept the Immaculate Conception, but that was later declared doctrine.

I don't know why this is becoming such a debate anyway. It's clear that, as has always been the case, Catholics are free to believe in Limbo or not to believe in Limbo. We don't know that unbaptized babies will go to heaven, but considering that the document said that there was definite grounds to hope that they do, I can only put my trust in God's mercy. Remember that God's mercy is something that no one can understand. So even Aquinas, despite his immense intelligence (and I do love his writings), can't exactly work it into some philosophical proof. In the order of justice, limbo for babies is perfectly logical. However, I personally believe that God's mercy makes nonsense of the idea.

[mortify]

[quote]This grace, however, of Christ, [b]without which neither infants nor adults can be saved[/b], is not rendered for any merits, but is given gratis, on account of which it is also called grace. "Being justified," says the apostle, "freely through His blood." Romans 3:24 Whence they, who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear, or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they were unable on account of youth to hear, that bath of regeneration, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, [b]are indeed justly condemned[/b]; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. "For all have sinned"—whether in Adam or in themselves—"and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23[/quote]

St Augustine, Treatise on Nature and Grace

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1503.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1503.htm[/url]

[Tindomiel]

St. Augustine is not Church Doctrine. That's what I'm saying. I disagree with him on this issue.

[kafka]

Much of what Saint Augustine WROTE was speculative theology expressing theological opinion which helped develop certain doctrines.

[mortify]

Which issue? Without Grace none can be saved.

[mortify]

[quote name='kafka' post='1271205' date='May 11 2007, 12:14 PM']Much of what Saint Augustine WROTE was speculative theology expressing theological opinion which helped develop certain doctrines.[/quote]

I suppose your theory on limbo being the edge of purgatory where the unbaptized make it to heaven is less speculative?

Let's not fall into vain glory, St Augustine is a Doctor of the Church (and rightfully so). I'm carefully reading his treatise and I can assure you it's firmly grounded in Scripture.

Edited May 11, 2007 by mortify

[Tindomiel]

But it is still a theory.

And yes, without grace none can be saved, but the Church has come right out and said that we do not know whether God provides some extraordinary means of imparting grace to those who have not been baptized. Therefore, I do not think I'm necessarily arrogant for believing that God does that in the case of miscarried babies, as long as I don't consider that belief tantamount to doctrine.

Edited May 11, 2007 by Tindomiel

[kafka]

[quote name='mortify' post='1271216' date='May 11 2007, 01:29 PM']I suppose your theory on limbo being the edge of purgatory where the unbaptized make it to heaven is less speculative?

Let's not fall into vain glory, St Augustine is a Doctor of the Church (and rightfully so). I'm carefully reading his treatise and I can assure you it's firmly grounded in Scripture.[/quote]

No, no less speculative. A lot of my ideas are based on a recent speculative theologian. The advantage we have living now is that Saint Augustine lived long ago and many teachers of the Faith have passed since him. I havent dared elaborate on my theological opinions yet cause you more traditional minded Catholics will grill me.

Right now I am reading on the developement of the idea of Limbo infantium. Would you care to give me a link to Saint Augustine's treatise so I can read it? Does he teach on Limbo? If so please send me the links. Do not get me wrong I love and respect Saint Augistine.

Edited May 11, 2007 by kafka