About The Roman Catholic Church

[The Joey-O]

I'm interested in hearing what people have been instructed about the Roman Catholic Church. I would like to hear from those who are or at one time were not themselves Roman Catholic. I think the easiest way to do this is seperate "teaching" into three categories:

-First, what was officially instructed to you about the Roman Catholic Church? (Stuff told from the pulpit, in a class room, etc.)

-Second, what were the unofficial opinions expressed in your church about the Roman Catholic Church?

-Third, what were the opinions that you heard from others (non-Roman Catholics) outside your church that had an impact on your impression of the Roman Catholic Church?

I'll start it off:

-The first church I ever really participated in was the Worthington Christian Church (a non-denominational, Campbellite church). I wasn't told much, officially, about the Roman Catholic Church. They were grouped with the Lutherans and Episcopalians as being "high-church", and therefore overly traditional. The high-church structure enabled people to more easily have a shallow faith (or no faith at all) but did not mean that people who participated in these congregations were non-Christian. They also weren't considered to be "bad", like the Mormons or Jehova's Witnesses.

-Within the church, there was a couple of converts from Roman Catholicism who said things along the lines of that they felt there was no real connection in their church. They said that people just showed up every Sunday and didn't have any good reason for it. Other people, who had not been in the church, felt it was occultic in some regard, but they too were few and far-between.

-I knew of a couple Christians from outside my church that speculated about the Pope someday being the Anti-Christ (as described in the Left-Behind Series). The most influential thing for me was that I did not know of a single Catholic who I would consider to be an "active-Christian". I knew of some other high-churchers who I thought were active but no Catholics. This wouldn't be a big deal, except that the Catholic Church was the largest congregation in my town. I later found out I was wrong about my assessment and that my town's Catholic Church had a particularly bad Catechistic program. For myself, a current Catholic, it wasn't until I went to Bible College that I was given a decent understanding of the Catholic Church. My theology professor had many Catholic leanings (though was not himself a Catholic) and was married to a Catholic theologian (who is now my God-mother).

So, that's the impressions I was given. I want to hear yours. :-D

Edited May 5, 2007 by The Joey-O

[Archaeology cat]

Guess I can add my experiences.

- I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church, in a small town (we're talking 1 stop sign, a post office, a general store, and 2 churches, 1 Baptist and 1 Methodist). Considering this was on the northern part of the Bible Belt (in KY), there were very few Catholics, and therefore lots of misconceptions. In Sunday school I was taught that Catholics worshiped Mary (I actually got in trouble for refuting that one); that it wasn't right to have liturgy because it didn't allow for the Holy Spirit to move (never mind that our church had the exact same outline for every single service); and that the deuteros contained things that went against the rest of Scripture. I don't know of anyone in that church who had actually read them, though.

- Unofficially, the pastor's wife believed Catholicism to be a cult and placed it on a par with Mormonism and JWs. Some believed the Left Behind books and thought the Pope would be the Anti-Christ. In fact, most people there believed the Left Behind series, partially because of the many classes given on the "end times" and creating time lines and finding fulfillments of the prophecies.

- As for others outside my church, none that really had an impact on me. One of the people who was in my wedding contacted me with all sorts of questions and misconceptions before the wedding, and did believe that most Catholics just sat there and never participated. That they went to church only because of the obligation to go. But since I was already Catholic by that time, that didn't influence me.

[RezaMikhaeil]

Thou I'm Coptic, not Roman Catholic, I feel that it might be acceptable to share a testimony because it's very similar to the last poster.

I was born into a non-religious family, and because my father wasn't in the picture [and my mother wasn't living as she should have been...], she'd often send me to stay with relatives [and eventually I had foster parents]. Prior to the 7th grade, I'd spent most of my time with my aunt and uncle because they had a son my age. My aunt was very charismatic and attended a Four Square Penecostal Church. She'd forced me to go with her to church, and so I'd just done what I was told. At the church it wasn't "the greatest" but it was better then home, and they were very musically orientated and I'm a lover of music, so it attracted me. After attending there for a while, eventually my mother started comming.

Now despite it being a "four square penecostal" church, it wasn't uncommon for them to change their doctrinal stances and lean towards Messianic Jewdeism [Zionist Christian] as the pastor was Jewish and towards the Word of Faith Doctrine and "End Times" theology. Not knowing better, I just went along with it and didn't question it. I even became zealous about it, demonizing other Christian churches that disagreed with the doctrine of this particular church, as these people taught me. I'd gone to "the bible camps" and all that jazz. Around the 7th grade, a pastor had outwardly asked me, "do you speak in tongues" and I'd said, "umm, no" and he'd gave me this long speech [and kinda chastised me verbally about it infront of the whole church] and said that I'd needed prayer and if I loved Jesus enough and had enough faith to want to speak in tongues, I'd be given "the gift". I'd even had a woman "prophesy" over me and say that I'd be a "mighty prophet for God... if I..." so I'd recieved the prayer and prayed genuinly in my heart to Jesus right then, and told him that I'd really really loved him and wanted to do his will. Subsequently I didn't ever "speak in tongues".

This kinda led to a rebellion of questioning everything that the church had to offer... As a child, frequently I'd been taught by so called "ex catholics" that Catholics were equal to the anti-Christ, that the pope was the anti-Christ attempting to take the place of Jesus Christ, that Saint icons were idol worship, that Catholics were going to hell, that Catholics were in love with their traditions not Jesus... [the usually stuff]. Attempting to get a "bearing" on the situation, I'd began learning more about the scriptures but was definately lost. I'd taken a grip of "classes" that the church had to offer about "cults" and found that most of it was over stereotypes and the personal agenda of Pat Robertson and other's that frequently demonize others religious beliefs that don't go along with their own. These people were very feminists also and didn't treat men very well at all...

Around the late 7th, 8th grade. My sister had began to study the life of Malcolm X and she was also on her own rebellion because of being demonized similarly. She'd began questioning my faith, and got me thinking. I'd briefly been introduced [through an Egyptian friend] to Coptic Orthodox, but she didn't know much about it and of course I'd been brainwashed to believe that it was "too Catholic". Eventually I'd gotten so depressed by the condemnation in Christianity [not that it was true Christianity, just the only Christianity that I'd known], that I'd become almost suicidal. I knew that suicide wasn't God's plan for me, but I was in shambles and didn't know the way out, so I'd contemplated it often.

At about 8th grade, I'd met a very nice Muslim girl [who ultimately became like a mother to me]. She'd taught me about Islam, and in Islam I'd found stablity, respect as a man [and women too were given respect], love, and everything that I'd needed but one thing. Jesus Christ was still in my thoughts. Everytime I'd pray to Allah, I'd felt that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and I couldn't deny that in my heart. It was then [while being raised by a variety of Muslims, primarily women] that I'd a Muslim sister come to me and said, "Reza, I know that you're still in love with Jesus Christ, if you're just a Muslim for the love, I'll still love you regardless of your choice to be a Christian". I'd then decided to study the Bible and Qur'an. I'd found "more truth" in the Bible but I'd also still loved the Qur'an deeply.

In almost a "leap of faith" [more like a leap of confusion], I'd chose to become a Christian again [and of course Coptic Orthodoxy was thrown into my path numerous times but I'd rejected it, as it was "too catholic" and I was still confused]. Not knowing of the truth of the Bible, I'd gone right back to Penecostalism. Now here's where a series of events went down:

1.) I'd went to a "mega church" and just pretended to speak in tongues because of the last situation. At that mega church, the youth pastor [who I'd grown close to] eventually was arrested for molesting 21 boys in the church and after the incident, the church put the blame on the children and attempted to cover up the incident. This alarmed me, and shook me that "these people aren't good people".

2.) I'd gone to a Bible College [Protestant] that was "interdenominational" and began studying about the foundation of the Church. This is where I'd met my wife. These people were very nice, but they embraced every piece of protestant theology [even that, which contradicted each other].

3.) After I'd left the college, my wife to be began reading the Early Church Fathers writings and every night would share them with me. This "SHOOK" [HUGELY] my world, as none of the churches that I knew [which were all Protestant] were that which the Early church Fathers spoke about [go figure huh?].

4.) Though we were studying the Early Church Fathers, we'd still attended various Four Square Churches. The stepping stone that seperated me from their church was this: My wife and I had attended a "class" that they were giving, it was very ritualistic and very charismatic but slightly even demonic. I'd gotten a vision right then, that God didn't want me there, so I got up to leave and right then the pastor proclaimed that I'd been "demon possessed" and attempted to influence my wife [who was just a girlfriend at the time] to leave me. Through a series of events, she'd not listened to him [she'd on her own, found that he was a liar] and we'd left that church.

5.) For the following 3 years, we'd floated around and "tried out" different denominations to attempt to find the church that the Early Church Fathers wrote about! After those three years [we'd just got married through the state because we couldn't find a church that would marry us, without a money factor being part of the equation], we got depressed and almost felt that God didn't love us. Then something miraculous happened...

We stumbled upon a Coptic Brother, who introduced us to [what would become my spiritual father]. We'd set up a meeting time [ever friday night, we'd call him and have bible study/history study and we'd go over everything]. Ultimately, we'd found that Coptic Orthodoxy was everything that we'd been looking for... We'd briefly checked into other Churches of the original pre-schism church but ultimately felt most led to Coptic Orthodoxy [not saying that the other churches aren't also God's true Universal Church]. At this time, Four Squares [particularly thoughs that knew me as a child] were angry, throwing huge stones at everything. This didn't affect our choice.

Note: After doing study into the Four Square Church, we found out that it's founder died from a drug over dose and was a very malicious, kniving and lying woman, so who where they to say anything about any other churches?

What I regret the most, is that I'd once hated [and even tried to convert] Orthodox and Roman Catholics alike, spreading slander about them and everything [everything that I'd been taught as a Protestant]. That's a point in my life, that I most regret and would do everything to take it back, but I guess it's part of life's learning lesson, as my best friends today are of every religious faith and creed.

Reza

[TotusTuusMaria]

[center]J.M.J.[/center]

I was Baptist. Also, half of my relatives are Pentecostal so I use to go to a number of Pentecostal revivals.

I was told:
Catholics worshiped Mary
The Pope was the anti-Christ
Catholics are not Christian
Catholicism was a cult
Catholics are Hell bound
Confession was wrong and evil
Catholics worship statues

I've heard all of the regular objections. Most people though that I come in contact with have a very poor understanding of Catholicism and do not even know about the Eucharist or even much about the Church's actual teachings on Mary's virginity, her Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption. If they knew anything about these I can just imagine what they would be saying.

I love that I am Catholic now, and all of those tragic misconceptions about the Catholic faith all rooted from simple ignorance and gossip.

"The difficulty of explaining "why I am Catholic" is that there are ten thousand reasons all amounting to one reason: that Catholicism is true." - G.K. Chesterton

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[Budge]

They taught the truth about the Catholic Church, that it is the counterfeit warned of in Revelation, and warned of the interfaith movement. {this was the good church I moved away from. There were several born again ex-Catholics in my last church.

When there are bishops and Cardinals offering incense to Hindu gods...

{Bible prophecy is in action}

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1266697' date='May 7 2007, 09:20 AM']They taught the truth about the Catholic Church, that it is the counterfeit warned of in Revelation, and warned of the interfaith movement. {this was the good church I moved away from. There were several born again ex-Catholics in my last church.

When there are bishops and Cardinals offering incense to Hindu gods...

{Bible prophecy is in action}[/quote]
Are you trying to advance the argument that leaders of true religions are infallible in the sense that they will not sin or commit errors? That's certainly what you're implying. There are no official teachings saying it's okay to make offerings to false gods. You're saying the actions of cardinals prove the lack of validity of Catholicism. No amount of good will show validity, but any illicit act is proffered as proof of falsity.

Which sins of a religious leader make the leader's church invalid, and what level of leader may commit these sins without invalidating the entire church? How many non-sinning leaders are present in your church, Budge?

Bible prophecy is always in action on some level.

[Budge]

I think anyone who follows leaders that make a HABIT, yes a habit of offering lights or incense to false gods, are the blind following the blind as Jesus warned.

I dont care about the official paperwork, again, I look at what they do.

the official paperwork isnt going to paper over the fact you are following men that break the first commandment every chance they get!

If a baptist {indpt} did this, I would make a stand against him too.

What are you doing but giving me a hard time instead?

I expose the interfaith movement with baptists as well on my board {emergent church}

Edited May 7, 2007 by Budge

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1266797' date='May 7 2007, 11:37 AM']I think anyone who follows leaders that make a HABIT, yes a habit of offering lights or incense to false gods, are the blind following the blind as Jesus warned.

I dont care about the official paperwork, again, I look at what they do.

the official paperwork isnt going to paper over the fact you are following men that break the first commandment every chance they get!

If a baptist {indpt} did this, I would make a stand against him too.

What are you doing but giving me a hard time instead?

I expose the interfaith movement with baptists as well on my board {emergent church}[/quote]
Leading and following. Since I don't light incense to false gods, I'm not being led into that place by the authority figure. I don't know most of these guys. I don't condone heresy from anyone. I am cautious about judging because so often information is incomplete and when I look into it, I find things aren't what the news reported. I won't go chasing every news story to verify because my pastor does a pretty good job.

You don't care about the official paperwork because it contradicts the actions you decry and that doesn't fit in with your agenda.

Your third sentence is hyperbole. Correct it and I'll demolish it in a later post.

I am glad you would make a stand against it. I have done so several times. I've fought syncretism in person countless times. I'm not condoning lighting the incense, so give up the diversionary tactics, take an honesty pill and address what I'm saying rather than side-stepping the issue. Here it is again. You answered none of this in your post. If you can't answer it, just say so and I'll leave it alone.
[quote]Are you trying to advance the argument that leaders of true religions are infallible in the sense that they will not sin or commit errors? That's certainly what you're implying. There are no official teachings saying it's okay to make offerings to false gods. You're saying the actions of cardinals prove the lack of validity of Catholicism. No amount of good will show validity, but any illicit act is proffered as proof of falsity.

Which sins of a religious leader make the leader's church invalid, and what level of leader may commit these sins without invalidating the entire church? How many non-sinning leaders are present in your church, Budge?[/quote]

[Budge]

[quote]eading and following. Since I don't light incense to false gods, I'm not being led into that place by the authority figure. I don't know most of these guys. I don't condone heresy from anyone.[b]I am cautious about judging because so often information is incomplete and when I look into it, I find things aren't what the news reported.[/b] I won't go chasing every news story to verify because my pastor does a pretty good job.[/quote]

Oh come on....Yeah it was photoshopped, thats it....



Sheesh talk about making excuses.
[quote]

You don't care about the official paperwork because it contradicts the actions you decry and that doesn't fit in with your agenda.

Your third sentence is hyperbole. Correct it and I'll demolish it in a later post.[/quote]Hey why are you even going after me here?

Seriously, why not save the ire for the Hindu worshipping Cardinal who cares nothing for Jesus Christ. {he has forsaken Christ publically and in front of others}
[quote]
I am glad you would make a stand against it. I have done so several times. I've fought syncretism in person countless times.[/quote]

How?

Because everytime I post on it, you fight me instead.

Sure youll SAY you condemn it, but then get right on how horrible Budge is to even bring it up.

[quote]
I'm not condoning lighting the incense, so give up the diversionary tactics, take an honesty pill and address what I'm saying rather than side-stepping the issue. Here it is again. You answered none of this in your post. If you can't answer it, just say so and I'll leave it alone.[/quote]Answered what?

My refusal to follow Hindu worshipping Cardinals?

get it?

I refuse to follow those who forsake Christ, the apostles taught "follow me as I follow Christ"

They dont as these photos are evidence.
[quote]
Which sins of a religious leader make the leader's church invalid, and what level of leader may commit these sins without invalidating the entire church? How many non-sinning leaders are present in your church, Budge?[/quote]

Your church is tied to its leadership, in fact being Catholic is being under submission to the Pope.

When you have the majority of church leaders worshipping or promoting the worship of false gods, its time to get out.

I would not accept this in ANY MINISTER. It would take just one time, and if he refused to repent after being confronted and couldnt be ousted from the church, GOODBYE. he would have just lost any authority over me as a "Christian" pastor.

Since your Pope, Cardinals and bishops are all connected to the itnerfaith movement, they long ago crossed that line.

There isnt one living bishop or Cardinal outside the Trad or Sedevancantist movement who has made a stand against this stuff either.

So you can say you disagree with it, but who is your ire reserved for?

[Aloysius]

Budge, we don't follow what the leaders do. We follow the "official paperwork," as you call it, that they produce. That is why your argument is null and void against us.

The official paperwork won't save the souls of our leaders if they lead people astray with their actions. They will have to answer for that on judgement day. But it will save our souls because we follow it; we believe in the official paperwork here, the official teaching; we reject anything that is contrary to that teaching. If any man, angel, bishop, or pope were to contradict the gospel we have received, we would not follow him.

We just don't expect that to ever happen, in the official paperwork; and we claim that that has never happened, in the official paperwork. Our claim is that the official paperwork is what is infallible and what should be followed, not the actions of the people in charge necessarily.

The cults of personality surrounding our leaders in modern times as a result of mass media do not mean that we are followers of their personalities, just of their "offices" of their "official paperwork"

All that said, your inability to see nuance, intentions, and subtleties in the actions also leads you to wild conclusions which are untrue. Tell me, why do they teach in the "official paperwork" and in all their teachings that the Church and Christ are necessary to salvation if they are, in reality, dark sinister followers of the One World Religion? A house divided against itself can not stand; Our Lord was accused of casting out demons in the name of demons too.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='The Joey-O' post='1264851' date='May 5 2007, 01:01 AM']I'm interested in hearing what people have been instructed about the Roman Catholic Church. I would like to hear from those who are or at one time were not themselves Roman Catholic. I think the easiest way to do this is separate "teaching" into three categories:

-First, what was officially instructed to you about the Roman Catholic Church? (Stuff told from the pulpit, in a class room, etc.)

-Second, what were the unofficial opinions expressed in your church about the Roman Catholic Church?

-Third, what were the opinions that you heard from others (non-Roman Catholics) outside your church that had an impact on your impression of the Roman Catholic Church?[/quote]

My dad is Jewish and my mom is Protestant. As a child, I was raised as nothing, although we "celebrated" both Hanukkah and Christmas as secular holidays. When I was 19, I was going through a pretty tough time, and had a Gideon NT - KJV, naturally - that had been given to me. I felt "overcome," and turned to a scripture designated for that feeling, Rm. 8:31-39:

[i] 31
What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32
He who did not spare his own Son but handed him over for us all, how will he not also give us everything else along with him?
33
Who will bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who acquits us.
34
Who will condemn? It is Christ (Jesus) who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us.
35
What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword?
36
As it is written: "For your sake we are being slain all the day; we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered."
37
No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us.
38
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers,
39
nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/i]

The thing that struck me was a) that God loved me, and b) through Jesus Christ.

One day in December I was driving along and passed a Baptist church with a sign out front, "We wish the peace of the Hanukkah season to all our Jewish friends." I thought that was pretty cool and contacted the pastor, who invited me to a bible study with him. I met with him a couple of times, after which I accepted the Lord and was "born again." I know because I wrote the date down in my Gideon NT.

Anyhoo, I'm not sure how but I found my way to a Nazarene church, which in turn pointed me toward a Messianic Jewish church that met in its facilities. I started attending both churches, one on Friday evening, one on a Sunday, and had a full immersion baptism in someone's swimming pool. In the meantime, going back a bit, I was dating a young woman from Ireland who of course had been brought up Catholic but who wasn't really practicing herself (her family were still all in Ireland), and so she accompanied me on my journey. At the time, however, she was teaching in a Catholic HS, and so I guess remained in touch, if you will, with Catholicism, including the priest who ministered there. After a number of years of our "born again" journey together - and, oh, how I longed for her to respond to an altar call - she felt that something was missing, that she had never really given Catholicism a chance. She organized a meeting for us with the priest from her school, Fr. Jude. When we met with him, she kind of vented about me but Fr. Jude turned around and asked her, "what about you," which totally took her aback. He then suggested a Catholic church that we check out, which we did.

When I first started going there, as a "born again, bible-believing Christian," I felt really uncomfortable so many aspects of the liturgy, e.g. the sign of the cross, transubstantiation, Mary, statues, etc. We continued with the Messianic church on Fridays, and the Catholic church on Sundays (we gave up the Nazarene church previously). During the course of that time, we were married in a different Nazarene church, presided over by the pastors from the Messianic and Catholic churches. About a year after we were married, my wife, 27 at the time, was diagnosed with breast cancer. Everything was fine, but that experience, coupled with the realities of everyday life, and the experience of attending both "born again" and Catholic churches, led me to begin examining my faith. The main thing was, life is more complicated and nuanced than is allowed for in "born again" churches. Ironically, despite its reputation for being hierarchical and monolithic, I found much more space to be human within the Catholic church. Secondly, as I attended the Catholic church over the years, I began to develop a sense of the weight of history and tradition present in the Church, and to feel that the rocky-poppy stylings of the "born again" churches, with their 50-60 year history was indicative of lack of depth and power, of bedrock, so to speak. Based on those experiences, I decided to become a Catholic. I fell into the "Christian from another tradition" category, my baptism accepted as valid, although I had no actual paperwork other than a letter that was scrounged together verifying my baptism. Accordingly, I entered the RCIA program as a catechumen, and received instruction for a period from September until the following Easter. So, in answer to your questions:

1. The instruction I received as a catechumen focused primarily on "breaking apart the word" after the Liturgy of Word at Mass. This was pretty basic, although also very powerful and a deep spiritual journey. However, I recently read the [i]United States Catholic Catechism for Adults[/i], and feel that I missed a lot that I should have been taught.
2. What was "unofficially" taught from the pulpit was that we are all "fumblers and stumblers," in the famous words of our pastor. It was that freedom to be human that meant so much to me.

Edited May 7, 2007 by kenrockthefirst

[Budge]

[quote]udge, we don't follow what the leaders do. We follow the "official paperwork," as you call it, that they produce. That is why your argument is null and void against us.[/quote]Why do you trust their paperwork if you cant trust them?
[quote]
The official paperwork won't save the souls of our leaders if they lead people astray with their actions. They will have to answer for that on judgement day. But it will save our souls because we follow it; we believe in the official paperwork here, the official teaching; we reject anything that is contrary to that teaching.[b] If any man, angel, bishop, or pope were to contradict the gospel we have received, we would not follow him.[/b][/quote]

BUT YOU ARE FOLLOWING THEM AND THEY ARE CONTRADICTING THE GOSPEL VIA THE INTERFAITH MOVEMENT...

[quote]


We just don't expect that to ever happen, in the official paperwork; and we claim that that has never happened, in the official paperwork. [b]Our claim is that the official paperwork is what is infallible and what should be followed, not the actions of the people in charge necessarily.[/b][/quote]

come on, the interfaith movement is being preached in encycals like Nostra Aetate and more.
[quote]
The cults of personality surrounding our leaders in modern times as a result of mass media do not mean that we are followers of their personalities, just of their "offices" of their "official paperwork"[/quote]Every Catholic here so far, with the exception of one or two Trads have been a defender of the itnerfaith movement. Only when they get this blantant do any of you even dare to say oh this is wrong, but its the natural outcome of those interfaith teachings.


[quote]
All that said, your inability to see nuance, intentions, and subtleties in the actions also leads you to wild conclusions which are untrue[/quote].

Whats that?[quote]Tell me, why do they teach in the "official paperwork" and in all their teachings that the Church and Christ are necessary to salvation if they are, in reality, dark sinister followers of the One World Religion? A house divided against itself can not stand; Our Lord was accused of casting out demons in the name of demons too.[/quote]

They twist things, they teach Jesus saves even those who dont know or acknowledge him, the so called anonymous Christian nonsense.

Satans workers always appear as angels of LIGHT.

[HollyDolly]

i grew up in a Catholic family andso never really had to deal with this.My grandmother(dad's mom) was a Prussian lutheran and married into a Bavarian catholic family.My dad said she agreed to raise him and his brother Uncle Tom as catholics.I understand in later life she joined the Catholic Church. her niece,my second cousin Hildegard would sometimes visit my great aunt,Sister Mary Generose,S.S.N.D.,with her family in later life.Hildegard to my knowledge never converted,butshe must have gotten some comfort of a spiritual nature from seeing my great aunt. She died of stomach cancer many years ago back in 1980 or 1981.

The Four Square Gospel Church was founded in the 1900s by Amiee Semple Mcpherson
out in Los Angeles,Ca. There was a scandal about her disappearnce in the 1920s.Some thought she drowned in the ocean,other thought she had been kidnapped.She later reappeared and there was a big trial about it. There are books about her.
yes,she did die of a drug overdose.Don't know how much of a rabid anti-Catholic she was.

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Budge' post='1266853' date='May 7 2007, 01:09 PM']Why do you trust their paperwork if you cant trust them?
BUT YOU ARE FOLLOWING THEM AND THEY ARE CONTRADICTING THE GOSPEL VIA THE INTERFAITH MOVEMENT...
come on, the interfaith movement is being preached in encycals like Nostra Aetate and more.
Every Catholic here so far, with the exception of one or two Trads have been a defender of the itnerfaith movement. Only when they get this blantant do any of you even dare to say oh this is wrong, but its the natural outcome of those interfaith teachings.
.

Whats that?

They twist things, they teach Jesus saves even those who dont know or acknowledge him, the so called anonymous Christian nonsense.

Satans workers always appear as angels of LIGHT.[/quote]

I'm sure you've said this before, but I would like to hear your beliefs concerning the interfaith movement. If you would, I would like to hear your opinions on:

1. What is the interfaith movement? What are its goals?

2. What is an appropriate view of other religions?

3. What do you believe happens to those who never get a chance to hear the gospel? And what happens to those who only hear a partial or perverted gospel?

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1264886' date='May 5 2007, 06:13 AM']Thou I'm Coptic, not Roman Catholic, I feel that it might be acceptable to share a testimony because it's very similar to the last poster.

I was born into a non-religious family, and because my father wasn't in the picture [and my mother wasn't living as she should have been...], she'd often send me to stay with relatives [and eventually I had foster parents]. Prior to the 7th grade, I'd spent most of my time with my aunt and uncle because they had a son my age. My aunt was very charismatic and attended a Four Square Penecostal Church. She'd forced me to go with her to church, and so I'd just done what I was told. At the church it wasn't "the greatest" but it was better then home, and they were very musically orientated and I'm a lover of music, so it attracted me. After attending there for a while, eventually my mother started comming.

Now despite it being a "four square penecostal" church, it wasn't uncommon for them to change their doctrinal stances and lean towards Messianic Jewdeism [Zionist Christian] as the pastor was Jewish and towards the Word of Faith Doctrine and "End Times" theology. Not knowing better, I just went along with it and didn't question it. I even became zealous about it, demonizing other Christian churches that disagreed with the doctrine of this particular church, as these people taught me. I'd gone to "the bible camps" and all that jazz. Around the 7th grade, a pastor had outwardly asked me, "do you speak in tongues" and I'd said, "umm, no" and he'd gave me this long speech [and kinda chastised me verbally about it infront of the whole church] and said that I'd needed prayer and if I loved Jesus enough and had enough faith to want to speak in tongues, I'd be given "the gift". I'd even had a woman "prophesy" over me and say that I'd be a "mighty prophet for God... if I..." so I'd recieved the prayer and prayed genuinly in my heart to Jesus right then, and told him that I'd really really loved him and wanted to do his will. Subsequently I didn't ever "speak in tongues".

This kinda led to a rebellion of questioning everything that the church had to offer... As a child, frequently I'd been taught by so called "ex catholics" that Catholics were equal to the anti-Christ, that the pope was the anti-Christ attempting to take the place of Jesus Christ, that Saint icons were idol worship, that Catholics were going to hell, that Catholics were in love with their traditions not Jesus... [the usually stuff]. Attempting to get a "bearing" on the situation, I'd began learning more about the scriptures but was definately lost. I'd taken a grip of "classes" that the church had to offer about "cults" and found that most of it was over stereotypes and the personal agenda of Pat Robertson and other's that frequently demonize others religious beliefs that don't go along with their own. These people were very feminists also and didn't treat men very well at all...

Around the late 7th, 8th grade. My sister had began to study the life of Malcolm X and she was also on her own rebellion because of being demonized similarly. She'd began questioning my faith, and got me thinking. I'd briefly been introduced [through an Egyptian friend] to Coptic Orthodox, but she didn't know much about it and of course I'd been brainwashed to believe that it was "too Catholic". Eventually I'd gotten so depressed by the condemnation in Christianity [not that it was true Christianity, just the only Christianity that I'd known], that I'd become almost suicidal. I knew that suicide wasn't God's plan for me, but I was in shambles and didn't know the way out, so I'd contemplated it often.

At about 8th grade, I'd met a very nice Muslim girl [who ultimately became like a mother to me]. She'd taught me about Islam, and in Islam I'd found stablity, respect as a man [and women too were given respect], love, and everything that I'd needed but one thing. Jesus Christ was still in my thoughts. Everytime I'd pray to Allah, I'd felt that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and I couldn't deny that in my heart. It was then [while being raised by a variety of Muslims, primarily women] that I'd a Muslim sister come to me and said, "Reza, I know that you're still in love with Jesus Christ, if you're just a Muslim for the love, I'll still love you regardless of your choice to be a Christian". I'd then decided to study the Bible and Qur'an. I'd found "more truth" in the Bible but I'd also still loved the Qur'an deeply.

In almost a "leap of faith" [more like a leap of confusion], I'd chose to become a Christian again [and of course Coptic Orthodoxy was thrown into my path numerous times but I'd rejected it, as it was "too catholic" and I was still confused]. Not knowing of the truth of the Bible, I'd gone right back to Penecostalism. Now here's where a series of events went down:

1.) I'd went to a "mega church" and just pretended to speak in tongues because of the last situation. At that mega church, the youth pastor [who I'd grown close to] eventually was arrested for molesting 21 boys in the church and after the incident, the church put the blame on the children and attempted to cover up the incident. This alarmed me, and shook me that "these people aren't good people".

2.) I'd gone to a Bible College [Protestant] that was "interdenominational" and began studying about the foundation of the Church. This is where I'd met my wife. These people were very nice, but they embraced every piece of protestant theology [even that, which contradicted each other].

3.) After I'd left the college, my wife to be began reading the Early Church Fathers writings and every night would share them with me. This "SHOOK" [HUGELY] my world, as none of the churches that I knew [which were all Protestant] were that which the Early church Fathers spoke about [go figure huh?].

4.) Though we were studying the Early Church Fathers, we'd still attended various Four Square Churches. The stepping stone that seperated me from their church was this: My wife and I had attended a "class" that they were giving, it was very ritualistic and very charismatic but slightly even demonic. I'd gotten a vision right then, that God didn't want me there, so I got up to leave and right then the pastor proclaimed that I'd been "demon possessed" and attempted to influence my wife [who was just a girlfriend at the time] to leave me. Through a series of events, she'd not listened to him [she'd on her own, found that he was a liar] and we'd left that church.

5.) For the following 3 years, we'd floated around and "tried out" different denominations to attempt to find the church that the Early Church Fathers wrote about! After those three years [we'd just got married through the state because we couldn't find a church that would marry us, without a money factor being part of the equation], we got depressed and almost felt that God didn't love us. Then something miraculous happened...

We stumbled upon a Coptic Brother, who introduced us to [what would become my spiritual father]. We'd set up a meeting time [ever friday night, we'd call him and have bible study/history study and we'd go over everything]. Ultimately, we'd found that Coptic Orthodoxy was everything that we'd been looking for... We'd briefly checked into other Churches of the original pre-schism church but ultimately felt most led to Coptic Orthodoxy [not saying that the other churches aren't also God's true Universal Church]. At this time, Four Squares [particularly thoughs that knew me as a child] were angry, throwing huge stones at everything. This didn't affect our choice.

Note: After doing study into the Four Square Church, we found out that it's founder died from a drug over dose and was a very malicious, kniving and lying woman, so who where they to say anything about any other churches?

What I regret the most, is that I'd once hated [and even tried to convert] Orthodox and Roman Catholics alike, spreading slander about them and everything [everything that I'd been taught as a Protestant]. That's a point in my life, that I most regret and would do everything to take it back, but I guess it's part of life's learning lesson, as my best friends today are of every religious faith and creed.

Reza[/quote]


WOW!! Thanks for sharing

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I was brought up in Saudi Arabia. My mum (a Catholic) and my dad (a 'low church' Anglican) have always believed in God, but neither of them are particularly theologically astute. They never taught me a thing about religion, although they tried their best to answer my questions - and I had many of them. As a very small child I developed a burning passion for God and a deep fascination with religion. At eight years old I asked for a Bible of my own. Getting hold of a Bible in Saudi Arabia is not easy, but my parents bought one for me when we were in England on holiday. It was the King James Version, as my mum was the one who chose it and she had no idea about the different versions of the Bible. I began to read, starting with Genesis and finishing with Revelation. Inspired by my best friend, a Muslim girl who could recite surah after surah of the Qu'ran in haunting melodic chant, I memorised large portions. But it wasn't enough to satisfy me. I prayed regularly, I thought about God often, I devoured books on all sorts of different religions. (Sadly my primary school library only had books on Christianity in general, with no reference to the different churches.) When I was nine years old my parents finally got exasperated with my constant questioning (their answers were always too vague to please me) and got snappish whenever I broached the subject of faith. My understanding of Catholicism was very muddled in consequence, as I had to piece together my information from a variety of different sources and could not always sift the wheat from the chaff. I had a very vague idea that Protestantism stemmed from Henry the Eighth, that somebody called Luther had got involved some point and taken all the pretty statues away, and that Catholics had rosaries. That was about it.

My best friend's family (which I look on as an extension of my own) taught me the importance of regular prayer and imparted a real reverence for God. Arab and Asian Muslims will not even leave their shoes facing sole-up as this is seen as a sign of disrespect to the Lord. (Culturally it is very rude to show the flat of your foot to somebody in the Arab world.) They had many little customs like this, customs that taught me that God is everywhere. In Arabic the response to 'How are you?' is always 'Thanks be to God', no matter whether you are in the best of health or at death's door. In Saudi it's perfectly normal to say "I am about to pray. Could you ring back later?" when somebody telephones you. There's nothing strange in dropping down on your knees at the side of the road - I often saw it happening as a child. It was in this environment that I learned that God [i]matters[/i]. I will be forever grateful to my Muslim friends and neighbours for giving me that lesson. Later, when I was at boarding school in England, I was to treat my Catholic faith with the same matter-of-factness that I had seen around me in Saudi. This was the cause of teasing, sometimes of outright bullying, but I never wavered. I had the encouragement of my wonderful grandmother in this, who was my mentor and my best friend until she died, not long after I arrived in England. Seeing her arrange to get dressed nicely and have her hair washed before the Eucharistic minister brought her Communion was a great inspiration, especially as she was too sick to be out of bed by that point. It was a lot of effort for a sick woman to make for ten minutes of prayer. So that ten minutes must be special. Why?

To rewind to the days when I lived in Saudi all year round, I considered conversion to Islam at one point. This was when I was eleven years old and my family had just moved to Jeddah. I was feeling terribly homesick for Dhahran, especially as I was struggling to settle in at my new school. Now I realise that I was attracted to Islam for all the wrong reasons - I liked the beauty of the call to prayer, the wisdom of praying five times a day, the poetic quality of the Qur'an, the sacred Arabic language, and above all the culture that came with it all. It's quite hard to be an expatriate child. You grow up not really knowing where you belong. If I became a Muslim, my heart would be anchored in Saudi Arabia forever, and I would have a home.

Even though I couldn't articulate this to myself then, I knew that these were excuses, not reasons for conversion. When I came to England I began to go to Mass faithfully, primarily because the Catholic church was the closest one. If it had been a Methodist church right next door I would probably have gone there. That was the year of my religious epiphany. I began to study theology in a serious way and became very familiar with the different kinds of Christianity. I was in the library from the end of school until closing time - often four hours at a stretch. (At the end of my second year in the school I won a prize for Religious Studies.) Between my regular Mass attendance and my thorough study, I saw that Catholicism was Christianity in its oldest and purest form, and I asked to be confirmed.

There was nobody to attend my confirmation apart from my sponsor, so we sat all alone in the long stretch of pew that had been reserved for me and my supposed guests. Unlike the other confirmandi, who were all about three years younger than me, I had no new clothes or presents. There was no family gathering afterwards, as my family was three thousand miles away. I had no exposure to so-called 'Catholic culture' at all. I was confirmed purely because I wanted to be.

And I was radiantly happy. Not very long ago, I heard one young girl grumbling because her confirmation party hadn't been as lavish as a friend's, and with a jolt I realised how blessed I had been. On my confirmation day I had stood there alone, just as I will at the judgement, and received nothing but the Holy Spirit. He was enough. He is enough. And I love being Catholic.

[mariahLVzJP2]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1267293' date='May 7 2007, 06:28 PM']I was brought up in Saudi Arabia. My mum (a Catholic) and my dad (a 'low church' Anglican) have always believed in God, but neither of them are particularly theologically astute. They never taught me a thing about religion, although they tried their best to answer my questions - and I had many of them. As a very small child I developed a burning passion for God and a deep fascination with religion. At eight years old I asked for a Bible of my own. Getting hold of a Bible in Saudi Arabia is not easy, but my parents bought one for me when we were in England on holiday. It was the King James Version, as my mum was the one who chose it and she had no idea about the different versions of the Bible. I began to read, starting with Genesis and finishing with Revelation. Inspired by my best friend, a Muslim girl who could recite surah after surah of the Qu'ran in haunting melodic chant, I memorised large portions. But it wasn't enough to satisfy me. I prayed regularly, I thought about God often, I devoured books on all sorts of different religions. (Sadly my primary school library only had books on Christianity in general, with no reference to the different churches.) When I was nine years old my parents finally got exasperated with my constant questioning (their answers were always too vague to please me) and got snappish whenever I broached the subject of faith. My understanding of Catholicism was very muddled in consequence, as I had to piece together my information from a variety of different sources and could not always sift the wheat from the chaff. I had a very vague idea that Protestantism stemmed from Henry the Eighth, that somebody called Luther had got involved some point and taken all the pretty statues away, and that Catholics had rosaries. That was about it.

My best friend's family (which I look on as an extension of my own) taught me the importance of regular prayer and imparted a real reverence for God. Arab and Asian Muslims will not even leave their shoes facing sole-up as this is seen as a sign of disrespect to the Lord. (Culturally it is very rude to show the flat of your foot to somebody in the Arab world.) They had many little customs like this, customs that taught me that God is everywhere. In Arabic the response to 'How are you?' is always 'Thanks be to God', no matter whether you are in the best of health or at death's door. In Saudi it's perfectly normal to say "I am about to pray. Could you ring back later?" when somebody telephones you. There's nothing strange in dropping down on your knees at the side of the road - I often saw it happening as a child. It was in this environment that I learned that God [i]matters[/i]. I will be forever grateful to my Muslim friends and neighbours for giving me that lesson. Later, when I was at boarding school in England, I was to treat my Catholic faith with the same matter-of-factness that I had seen around me in Saudi. This was the cause of teasing, sometimes of outright bullying, but I never wavered. I had the encouragement of my wonderful grandmother in this, who was my mentor and my best friend until she died, not long after I arrived in England. Seeing her arrange to get dressed nicely and have her hair washed before the Eucharistic minister brought her Communion was a great inspiration, especially as she was too sick to be out of bed by that point. It was a lot of effort for a sick woman to make for ten minutes of prayer. So that ten minutes must be special. Why?

To rewind to the days when I lived in Saudi all year round, I considered conversion to Islam at one point. This was when I was eleven years old and my family had just moved to Jeddah. I was feeling terribly homesick for Dhahran, especially as I was struggling to settle in at my new school. Now I realise that I was attracted to Islam for all the wrong reasons - I liked the beauty of the call to prayer, the wisdom of praying five times a day, the poetic quality of the Qur'an, the sacred Arabic language, and above all the culture that came with it all. It's quite hard to be an expatriate child. You grow up not really knowing where you belong. If I became a Muslim, my heart would be anchored in Saudi Arabia forever, and I would have a home.

Even though I couldn't articulate this to myself then, I knew that these were excuses, not reasons for conversion. When I came to England I began to go to Mass faithfully, primarily because the Catholic church was the closest one. If it had been a Methodist church right next door I would probably have gone there. That was the year of my religious epiphany. I began to study theology in a serious way and became very familiar with the different kinds of Christianity. I was in the library from the end of school until closing time - often four hours at a stretch. (At the end of my second year in the school I won a prize for Religious Studies.) Between my regular Mass attendance and my thorough study, I saw that Catholicism was Christianity in its oldest and purest form, and I asked to be confirmed.

There was nobody to attend my confirmation apart from my sponsor, so we sat all alone in the long stretch of pew that had been reserved for me and my supposed guests. Unlike the other confirmandi, who were all about three years younger than me, I had no new clothes or presents. There was no family gathering afterwards, as my family was three thousand miles away. I had no exposure to so-called 'Catholic culture' at all. I was confirmed purely because I wanted to be.

And I was radiantly happy. Not very long ago, I heard one young girl grumbling because her confirmation party hadn't been as lavish as a friend's, and with a jolt I realised how blessed I had been. On my confirmation day I had stood there alone, just as I will at the judgement, and received nothing but the Holy Spirit. He was enough. He is enough. And I love being Catholic.[/quote]
i just have to say...thanks for sharing that! you write so eloquently

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1266830' date='May 7 2007, 12:31 PM']Oh come on....Yeah it was photoshopped, thats it....



Sheesh talk about making excuses.[/quote]
Quote me excusing the action. Quote me saying the photo was faked. I can judge the photo as a stupid action and certainly scandalous. I doubt the cardinal believes ganesha is really a god. I would tell him flat out he shouldn't have done that, but I don't know until I talk to him why he did it. My intuition tells me out of misguided desire for unity. It shouldn't have been done. I'm not going further than that because I don't know the man.

[quote]Hey why are you even going after me here?

Seriously, why not save the ire for the Hindu worshipping Cardinal who cares nothing for Jesus Christ. {he has forsaken Christ publically and in front of others}
[/quote]Because you're using the actions of a man to invalidate the entire Catholic Church. That's simply not logical.


[quote]How?

Because everytime I post on it, you fight me instead.

Sure youll SAY you condemn it, but then get right on how horrible Budge is to even bring it up.[/quote]
I'm not saying you're horrible for having brought it up. I'm saying you're being misleading in presenting it as accepted by the Church when it is clear the Catholic Church teaches against syncretism.
As to how, come to Houston and have dinner with me and my wife and daughter. If you and your husband aren't secretly psychos, you can stay at my house and we'll have someone who believes in syncretism over. When I"m at the station, your husband will have to come to work with me because I don't allow boys in the house when I'm not home. Also, no girls in the house when my wife isn't home. It's a good rule. We have a spare room and it has a queen size bed.
Seriously, it's not the bringing it up, it's the use of it. We all know there are people like this. It's not news.


[quote]Answered what?

My refusal to follow Hindu worshipping Cardinals?

get it?

I refuse to follow those who forsake Christ, the apostles taught "follow me as I follow Christ"

They dont as these photos are evidence.
[/quote]First off, the honesty pill thing was out of line and I'm sorry. It is easy for people to talk past each other without evil intent from either party.
The questions are from an earlier post. You'll have to go back and look. I'm in no hurry.
They didn't in htis instance from appearances. The bad thing about photos is they preserve mistakes. I don't know what, if anything, followed this event. He may have been censured, he may have not. It may have been buried and ignored out of embarrassment. I don't know. He might regret it, or he might not. I don't know the man, but I know what the Church teaches. The tragedy is many do not, and many want syncretism because it's easier and this will give them the ground to fight on.



[quote]Your church is tied to its leadership, in fact being Catholic is being under submission to the Pope.[/quote]
Only as far as his authority extends. I don't have to follow him into error, and he has yet to put it into dogma that syncretism is okay.

[quote]When you have the majority of church leaders worshipping or promoting the worship of false gods, its time to get out.
[/quote]You haven't provided any solid evidence of the majority. Provide it or put it in the can.
The Church is still not doing it. The people have always been a problem.

[quote]I would not accept this in ANY MINISTER. It would take just one time, and if he refused to repent after being confronted and couldnt be ousted from the church, GOODBYE. he would have just lost any authority over me as a "Christian" pastor.[/quote]I believe there's an actual procedure for this. But we have a different concept of church, apparently. I'm not sure how your churched operate, but many churches are owned by a single pastor. He is, in essence, the pope of that church, and if he says Jesus married Mary, then there is no authority apart from him to correct it. You can refer to the Bible, but he is the final interpreter of the bible for his parish. I can go to a priest's ordinary and further up the chain. Many are infected with modernism, but the Deposit of Faith isn't. The tragedy is in those who don't know how to get past wrong teachings.


[quote]Since your Pope, Cardinals and bishops are all connected to the itnerfaith movement, they long ago crossed that line.

There isnt one living bishop or Cardinal outside the Trad or Sedevancantist movement who has made a stand against this stuff either.

So you can say you disagree with it, but who is your ire reserved for?[/quote] They may have. I don't follow their day to day movements and I've already learned the faith. My priest doesn't teach syncretism.
My ire is reserved for people who drive too slowly on the freeway and who don't know how to make turns without stopping. And who talk on cellphones whilst driving poorly.
And people who stop in the left lane when I've running lights and sirens.