Matrimony In Mortal Sin

[Aloysius]

Okay, so the situation: my brother hasn't gone to Church for a few years now. But he decided to get married in the Church.

Now, we told him he has to go to confession because you have to be in a state of grace to receive the sacrament; but I really don't think he's going to have a purpose of ammendment (maybe he'll shock the hell out of me and come to mass with us the Sunday after his marriage, but I'm not expecting it)

So here's my question: you can't receive the sacrament unless in a state of grace, right? Is it still a valid sacrament then? It would seem to me it'd have to be, otherwise people could just claim they contracted the sacrament while in mortal sin when they wanted an annullment; but what's the deal with that?

Oh, and as regards it just producing a natural marriage as opposed to a sacramental one: they've been living together for a while so, as far as I'm concerned, they have already contracted a marriage by natural law and are now merely attempting to lift it to be a sacramental marriage. So if there is no purpose of ammendment, is anything really going to happen at the Church this sunday (aside from a sacriledge)?

just wondering... I'll make sure to attempt to get my bro to come with us to mass the next sunday at least...

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1279449' date='May 22 2007, 06:27 PM']Okay, so the situation: my brother hasn't gone to Church for a few years now. But he decided to get married in the Church.

Now, we told him he has to go to confession because you have to be in a state of grace to receive the sacrament; but I really don't think he's going to have a purpose of ammendment (maybe he'll shock the hell out of me and come to mass with us the Sunday after his marriage, but I'm not expecting it)

So here's my question: you can't receive the sacrament unless in a state of grace, right? Is it still a valid sacrament then? It would seem to me it'd have to be, otherwise people could just claim they contracted the sacrament while in mortal sin when they wanted an annullment; but what's the deal with that?

Oh, and as regards it just producing a natural marriage as opposed to a sacramental one: they've been living together for a while so, as far as I'm concerned, they have already contracted a marriage by natural law and are now merely attempting to lift it to be a sacramental marriage. So if there is no purpose of ammendment, is anything really going to happen at the Church this sunday (aside from a sacriledge)?

just wondering... I'll make sure to attempt to get my bro to come with us to mass the next sunday at least...[/quote]

Marriage contracted while in mortal sin is valid.

[quote][b]The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:[/b]
14 Q. What is necessary to contract Christian marriage validly?
A. To contract Christian marriage validly it is necessary to be free from every diriment impediment to marriage; and to give consent freely to the marriage contract in the presence of the parish priest (or a priest delegated by him) and of two witnesses.

15 Q. What is necessary to contract marriage lawfully?
A. To contract marriage lawfully it is necessary to be free from every impeding impediment to marriage; to be instructed in the principal truths of religion; and, finally, to be in a state of grace; otherwise a sacrilege would be committed
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM[/url][/quote]

And, just so you know, a baptized person cannot have a natural marriage without a sacramental one.

[quote][b]The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:[/b]
5 Q. Can the contract be separated from the sacrament in Christian marriage?
A. No, in marriage among Christians the contract cannot be separated from the sacrament, because, for Christians, marriage is nothing else than the natural contract itself, raised by Jesus Christ to the dignity of a sacrament.

6 Q. Among Christians, then, there can be no true marriage that is not a sacrament?
A. Among Christians there can be no true marriage that is not a sacrament.
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM[/url][/quote]

[Aloysius]

it is not, then, a "true marriage", you are correct. but it's now just as much a natural marriage as if he had gone to a judge and declared a marriage, because they live together. I'm just talking about what constitutes marriage by natural law; ie, the bond of the flesh. I know that they are not validly married, even naturally. Sometimes I use terms without precision to get points accross, but you are right to clarify the precise theological definitions of the terms do not apply to their current state.

Anyway, I figured that was the answer, because I knew there were no grounds for annulment on the basis of mortal sin.

[Hirsap]

Aloysius, I am no expert on the issue. But to my understanding, even if received in the state of mortal sin, the Sacrament of Marriage is strictly speaking valid, but the [i]fruits[/i] of the Sacrament are not had. In addition to of course a sacrilige occuring.

This would not seem to be grounds for anulment either, as the sacrament would be truly conferred, at least, in a sense. With the Sacrament of Confirmation, for instance: if received in the state of sin, the fruits of the sacrament come to life upon the sinner later on coming into the state of grace. With Marriage, I am sure I read something along the lines of how, if it is received in a state of sin, need not be 'repeated' to truly make it valid, e.g.: after repenting and going into the state of grace. It would follow, I would think, that the Marriage was valid in the first place.

Still, I think you should ask an orthodox priest about your situation. I could be wrong.

[SJP]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1279464' date='May 22 2007, 09:07 PM']it is not, then, a "true marriage", you are correct. but it's now just as much a natural marriage as if he had gone to a judge and declared a marriage, because they live together. I'm just talking about what constitutes marriage by natural law; ie, the bond of the flesh. I know that they are not validly married, even naturally. Sometimes I use terms without precision to get points accross, but you are right to clarify the precise theological definitions of the terms do not apply to their current state.

Anyway, I figured that was the answer, because I knew there were no grounds for annulment on the basis of mortal sin.[/quote]


So if the marriage will not be a valid one and not a true marriage, then why are they allowed to be married in the Church?

[Aloysius]

I was there talking about what I called a "natural law marriage" when referring to the fact of their cohabitation. it wasn't really a marriage, it just might as well have been for the way they were living. the actual marriage has a shot at being a valid marriage; insomuch as the mortal sin does not impede its validity. that doesn't mean I'm sure it's going to be a valid sacrament... but ah well, not my decision. probably one of those things that you have to let time show, and see if one day he comes lookin for an annulment. it'll almost certainly be a sacriledge, unless my brother really surprises me and starts going to Church again (that would indicate to me that he had a true purpose of ammendment)

it's like any sacrament, even if done as a sacriledge it can be valid and thus its effects permanent.

[farglefeezlebut]

Is he aware that his actions (or to be more accurate, omissions) are sinful? Because if he is not aware then he is not moratl sin (although it would still be good for him to go to confession and you should definitely start persuading him to go to Mass.)

[jkaands]

Why don't they ask the priest who will marry them?!

Why does no one on this forum suggest talking to the clergy involved in these questions?

I am sure that any diocesan priest with pastoral experience has faced this question many times and will tell them what they need to do.

Are there priests with pastoral experience on this forum who can answer this question?

By the way, when a priest performs mass in a state of mortal sin, are the species consecrated? Just as is the sacrament of marriage valid if one (or both) of the couple is in a state of mortal sin. If one or both of the couple does not believe that cohabitation in a mortal sin, then is it? I thought that one had to have intent to commit a mortal sin for it to be mortal.

[Aloysius]

it's valid, we already established that. the priest is handling this in his way, it is not my place to meddle. I may not agree completely with the way he is handling it, because most priests nowadays will just make sure the marriage can go on... very few priests nowadays would refuse to marry a couple even if there were just causes to refuse because they don't want to anger the family and stuff, and just drive them away to be married by someone else anyway. just the way it is.

[quote]If one or both of the couple does not believe that cohabitation in a mortal sin, then is it? I thought that one had to have intent to commit a mortal sin for it to be mortal.[/quote]
yes, but when it comes down to the wire, intent and knowledge can never be an excuse to allow a sacrament when someone is asking for advice on how and whether to approach the sacrament... why? because when you present yourself to approach that sacrament you become informed of it being wrong. the question of whether they were culpable for their mortal sin would be opened up, say, after their death when you just say "we do not know whether they died culpable of mortal sin or not, we leave it up to the judgement of God". but other than that, you should always advise someone, if they ask you if they should approach a sacrament, to not do so if they are in continuous grave sin. you don't say "well, since you don't know you're continuing in grave sin, you can come up to the sacrament" though you could say "well, since you DIDN'T know you were committing grave sin in the past, but I have now told you, then if you now intend not to continue in it then your past actions will not bar you from the sacrament"

I was very impressed with him going to confession. the priest never said he should (the only person that told him he had to was my mother (and me), God bless her ) but he went out in the car on his own... as far as he knew no one would have known had he just stayed out and not gone to the Church. I was going to confession too, and I saw him there.

Of course, then he didn't go to mass this sunday. I could give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that he intends to start going weekly; if he does, I really wouldn't consider him culpable for this one sunday; not enough that he couldln't go to communion next sunday. But i highly doubt he will do so.

There is never any context when you can say to someone "since you are not culpable for this continuing grave sin, you may continue to approach the sacraments"; if you're ever in the place to give them advice, the most you can offer is "if you were not culpable in the past, now you are under obligation to intend not to continue this sin; if you have this intention, your past sins you are not culpable for will not bar you from the sacraments; otherwise, they do." otherwise, you become just another agent of his ignorance; if you help him to persist in ignorance that something is wrong, then you share some culpability for his sins.

for they're all still grave sins with mortal consequences; the question is whether the committer of the act is "culpable" or "blameworthy"; if they are not blameworthy for the actions, then likely someone else is to some degree; if no one is blameworthy then it's just to be blamed on original sin and/or the effects of Satan; but it never ceases to become "evil" or "sinful"

[farglefeezlebut]

Maybe he went to a different mass on Sunday. Give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Aloysius]

sorry, I know for a fact that that is quite impossible. Anyway, I just started this thread cause I got myself confused as to whether mortal sin invalidated the sacrament or just made it valid but sacrilidgeous... just needed to clarify a bit of info theoretically, did not mean to start a whole discussion about the state of my brother's soul because I am not his judge, God is. just clearing up the objective truths in my mind.

I do hope and pray that he will start going eventually... I have a feeling he might if/when he ever has children. My own parents were married by a protestant minister because my dad never got an annulment but they came to mass with us every sunday with us but never went up for communion until they finally got an annulment and got their marriage blessed by the Church. I'll always be impressed with that. I have a feeling something similar will happen with my brother; he'll want his kids to at least have that experience of the faith he was raised in and eventually it will bring him totally back to the sacraments.

[farglefeezlebut]

Prayers to your brother.