Infant Baptism Of Desire By Parents

[KnightofChrist]

Taken from the theard "Burning Building Scenario"


In the Church parents who desire their child to be baptized can have their child baptized, and that is a true holy baptism. But what of children who's parents desire their child to be baptized but their child dies before that can happen, does the child have baptism of desire? Why not? If the parents can desire their child to be baptized, and have it done, that same kind of desire does not count if the child dies before baptism?


[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1281294' date='May 25 2007, 01:35 PM']I guess I'd just let them go to Limbus Puerorum.[/quote]

What if the parents of those children fully intended and fully desired to baptize their children? Meaning absolutely the children would have been baptized, but they die, would the children in go to Limbus Puerorum? Or would they have baptism of desire and go to Paradise? If they would not have baptism of desire why not? If the parents of a child can desire their child to be baptized and have it done, being a true and most holy baptism, why does this same desire not count if the same child dies before the baptism can be preformed?


[quote name='jckinsman' post='1282031' date='May 27 2007, 04:32 AM']This is nuts! If a child,who is not baptized,born in the jungle,parents never knew God. The stain of mans original sin still IS THERE is it not? Okay, Do you really think that a baby born without baptism is going to fry in purgatory for years,or might it be Less then a worldly second! Is this tiny soul going to even know what happened? Our God is bigger then our small minds. Nothing unclean will enter heaven! Period! Just because something happened to this soul that barely lived, does not make him any more innocent of man's original sin! JC[/quote]


I'm not talking about any of that. I am speaking of Children born into Catholic families, who's Parents fully desire their children to be baptized. But the child dies before baptism. We know from Church teaching two things on this matter, that one, in infant baptism the desire Parents count, the Parents reason and desire "stand in" for the child, it matters, and it is most important. The other thing is that if one desires to be baptized but dies before hand that person has "baptism of desire."

The Church teaches that the baptism of a infant, and the baptism of an Adult convert are the same, both true and holy, but in one the indivdial uses his/her own reason and desire to be baptized the other his/her parents. There is no difference is both types of baptisms are completed, why is it different if both the adult convert, and child die? The reason and desire of the parent become less important, less reasonable, less desirable?

If the parents reason and desire do not count if the child dies, this would seem to make their reason and desire less worthy than that of a Adult convert. And if that is the case does that not chase a shadow on the reason and desire of the parents in normal infant baptism? If not why not.

A parent or mother can not have an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this can not be called Baptism of Desire of their child?

While attempts have been made the question has not been answered. Why does the desire of the parents count when the baptism of a child is completed fully, but that same desire does not count if the child dies (seconds even) before the baptism has begun.

Edited May 28, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Mercy me]

I remember discussing this with a friend of mine. She is a neonatal ICU nurse and said that she has baptized many babies. According to CCC1256, she or anyone can baptize whether or not they themselves are baptized.

[Groo the Wanderer]

God Bless the pygmies in New Zealand...

[Resurrexi]

Baptism of desire was defined as something that catechumens can have by the CCC.

[quote][b]Catechism of the Catholic Church:[/b]
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 [b]For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.[/b]

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#VI"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#VI[/url][/quote]

[Budge]

I dont believe in infant baptism, but if your question was true, other people could get us into heaven even if we were not saved.

Sure sounds good, hey I would like to drag a few athiests, and other types who are not saved to heaven with me...{instead of crying over where they may end up}

But it doesnt work that way...

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Budge' post='1282825' date='May 28 2007, 08:59 PM']I dont believe in infant baptism, but if your question was true, other people could get us into heaven even if we were not saved.

Sure sounds good, hey I would like to drag a few athiests, and other types who are not saved to heaven with me...{instead of crying over where they may end up}

But it doesnt work that way...[/quote]

Getting into heaven [b]DOES EQUAL [/b]saved....

that's the definition of being saved-- getting into heaven.

[Budge]

[quote]other people could get us into heaven even if we were not saved.[/quote]

Thats what I meant.

You arent going if youre not saved and a born again believer in Jesus Christ!



Im a bit tired so maybe I should have explained it better...

[Aloysius]

after the age of reason only the person's own intention could save them.

the only way you could "loophole" that would be to baptize all the babies you could find and then kill them. but God is a just judge and does not allow for loopholes at the end of the day, He clears house at the end of the day.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1282825' date='May 28 2007, 07:59 PM']I dont believe in infant baptism, but if your question was true, other people could get us into heaven even if we were not saved.

Sure sounds good, hey I would like to drag a few athiests, and other types who are not saved to heaven with me...{instead of crying over where they may end up}

But it doesnt work that way...[/quote]


I know it doesnt work that way, the Church doesnt say it works that way. Christ said not to forbid the children to come to him. Mother Church obeys His command thus allows infants to be baptized, baptism marks us with the sign of God. Parents can baptize their children, but you can not baptize anyone you wish and "save" them, Mother Church does not teach that. Baptism does not guarantee salvation.

To be saved, you must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31), but the Sacred Scriptures show other things you must also do to be saved.

* You must endure to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.
* You must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.
* You must be baptized with water. Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5 Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21.
* You must be a member in God's true church. Acts 2:47.
* You must confess your sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9
* You must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21
* You must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.
* You must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16, I Corinthians 11:23-29

Edited May 29, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Budge' post='1282825' date='May 28 2007, 06:59 PM']I dont believe in infant baptism, but if your question was true, other people could get us into heaven even if we were not saved.[/quote]

fortunately most of the people here, as well as most of the Christians in the world, the original Apostles, their disciples, the earliest Christians, the Apostolic Fathers, the Church Fathers, and all Christians for the first 1500 years of Christianity never even heard of the interpreation of being "saved".

[quote name='Budge' post='1282825' date='May 28 2007, 06:59 PM']Sure sounds good, hey I would like to drag a few athiests, and other types who are not saved to heaven with me...{instead of crying over where they may end up}

But it doesnt work that way...[/quote]

so for the OSAS and "saved" believers, more than 5 billion people in the world's population are screwed. it doesn't work that way.


[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1282826' date='May 28 2007, 07:03 PM']Getting into heaven [b]DOES EQUAL [/b]saved....

that's the definition of being saved-- getting into heaven.[/quote]



[quote name='Budge' post='1282836' date='May 28 2007, 07:14 PM']Thats what I meant.

You arent going if youre not saved and a born again believer in Jesus Christ!



Im a bit tired so maybe I should have explained it better...[/quote]

speaking of infantile ideas.. "you're not saved.. you're not born again.." ok now you've proven to us that you have not read the Catechism regarding some of the most basic fundamentals of the Church, even though you say you have.

"HEY, THAT'S NOT BIBLICAL!"