Maritial Intimacy

[Aloysius]

according to tradition, Mary had made a vow of perpetual virginity and was dedicated to the Lord living in the temple. the high priest (i 4get y, but he did) to tell all the girls there to go home to find husbands. Mary refused. The high priest feared God and knew he couldn't make her break her vow to God. He called for ppl to take her as wife but respect her vow. There were about 12 suitors, one being St. Joseph. He took the staffs before the arc, and St. Josephs grew flowers at the top. St. Joseph was therefore to take Mary as his wife respecting her vow.

that tradition comes from Christians in about the 3rd/4th century, The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary and the Protevangelium of James and stuff... many early Christian writings make a point of showing Mary's sinlessness and virginity.

[KennC]

Hi Nicole;

, to me that would be Holy Ground from that moment on, and I just couldn't go there, sorry.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Brother Adam,

These are very good questions! Thank you for asking them. There is much that could be said in response as I'm sure you can imagine. But I will just make a couple of points that I think are of central importance.

The Fathers of the Church taught Mary's perpetual virginity. An ancient Christian writing known as the proto-evangelium of James tells of Mary's parents and how they were getting old and had not yet had any children. Mary's birth was prophecied to them and they made a vow to consecrate her to God. According to this account Mary lived in the temple until she hit puberty. Because of the ritual purification rules she could no longer live in the temple. It was thus that St. Joseph was chosen to be the guardian of the Virgin. According to this text Joseph was older and a widow. I don't know if this story is exactly true, but it reflects the earliest Christian view of Our Lady as a perpetual virgin.

Some Fathers and othes have seen indications of this in Scripture. For example when the Angel Gabriel announces to Mary that she will concieve and bear the Christ, her reply was "how can this be, since I know not man?", since she was betrothed to Joseph at this point it would be a silly question if they intended to have marital relations. Obviously she would concieve because she would soon be married and have marital relations. So many have seen this as an indication of Mary's vow of virginity.

Many of the Fathers defend Our Lady's perpetual virginity on the basis of the singular holiness of the Incarnation. Basically it is impious to think that this sacred vessel, who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and bore the Incarnate Deity, would be "known" by a man. Joseph would not dare enter this Sanctuary of the Most High. Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant, a man would be struck dead for even touching the old ark. How much more is this Sacred Virgin's inviolateness and purity.

Another point that is invoked by the Fathers in Mary's defense is the fact that Jesus entrusted Mary to John at the foot of the cross. If Mary and Joseph had had marital relations and begotten offspring together it would not only not make sense, but be totally against the social norms to entrust Mary to anyone other than one of Her other children.

Then there is the fact that Mary was seen by the earliest of Fathers as the New Eve, the Woman with the Redeemer, and since Christ remained always virgin, it is fitting for this New Eve to remain always a virgin. These teachings are not meant to take away from the dignity and holiness of Christian Marriage. But there was a deep consciousness in the early Church of the value of virginity and continence as an eschatological sign and as an offering to God, Jesus and Mary were the models of holy virginity for men and women. It proclaims that "the form of this world is passing away" and that despite the goodness of marriage, living for the Kingdom of God, and God's righteousness are the only definitive values in this life. Virginity was compared in the early Church to martyrdom in that it is a profound gift of self for God and for the Kingdom. It is only fitting that Jesus and Mary embraced such a charism. Mary's response to God to bear Jesus required a total, irrevocable gift of self which implies that Mary's life was quite unique.

Anyway, the idea that Mary should have had marital relations with Joseph goes totally against the ancient way of thinking (especially the Jewish way of thinking) about the Sacred and purity and stuff. It would be inconceivable to people's minds that the Holy Ark of God who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and bore the Incarnate God would later be known by a man. By the very fact of Her having born God, she would be seen as totally consecrated to the Most High as His chosen vessel.

As far as Mary's need for redemption from sin, the teachings of the Church affirm this! Jesus was Mary's Saviour just as much as anyone else (even more so in a sense). Because of Mary's unique and most exalted vocation she has been given singular graces enabling her to be fit for this calling. The Church expresses it in terms of "preservative redemption". This is at the heart of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Expressed in negative terms it is as follows: "Mary, from the moment of her conception, and through the foreseen merits of Christ, was freed from all stain of original sin". Put in positive terms she was given sanctifying grace from the moment of her conception. Something like a regenerative baptism in the womb. It is said that John the Baptist was sanctified in the womb because he was to be the forerunner. Mary was sanctified in a singular way from the moment of her conception, to be a fit Mother for the Son of God from whom He would take flesh.

Her Immaculate Conception is the beginning of a New Creation, she was the New Eve, and many Fathers also call Her the Virgin Earth from which the New Adam was formed, or the shoot from the stump of Jesse from which would flower forth the Messiah, or like Aaron's staff which budded.

I hope this helps clear up some of your questions.

Peace.

[Brother Adam]

Other traditions maintain that Mary was a consecrated Virgin to God. A lady of the temple, like a present day nun (this is where monastic roots lie) would have been chaste for their whole lives.

Do ladies of the temple or nuns get married?

[Aloysius]

according to tradition, Mary had made a vow of perpetual virginity and was dedicated to the Lord living in the temple. the high priest (i 4get y, but he did) to tell all the girls there to go home to find husbands. Mary refused. The high priest feared God and knew he couldn't make her break her vow to God. He called for ppl to take her as wife but respect her vow. There were about 12 suitors, one being St. Joseph. He took the staffs before the arc, and St. Josephs grew flowers at the top. St. Joseph was therefore to take Mary as his wife respecting her vow.

that tradition comes from Christians in about the 3rd/4th century, The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary and the Protevangelium of James and stuff... many early Christian writings make a point of showing Mary's sinlessness and virginity.

bro, read my post about how tradition explains it

[Brother Adam]

sorry i wrote that last post while you two were posting. thanks!

[Laudate_Dominum]

bro, read my post about how tradition explains it

It should be noted for the sake of our protestant brethren, that these documents, "The Protoevengelium of James", etc. do not constitute part of Sacred Tradition (big "T") but are rather pious Christian writings from the early centuries and the Church does not endorse them as if they are infallible or even necessarily true. The authoritative basis of the doctrine of Our Lady's perpetual virginity is the unanimous concensus of the Fathers. This has always been considered the "orthodox" understanding of Our Lady, or the correct doctrine, that which is what the Apostle's have handed down. The Church dogmatically defined Our Lady's perpetual virginity way back in the Patristic era. But of course there are many logical reasons for believing it besides the fact that it's an authoritative part of Tradition. The Word is the only-begotten of the Father, it is fitting that the Word Incarnate be the only-begotten of His human mother. See my previous post for more reasons.

[Aloysius]

It should be noted for the sake of our protestant brethren, that these documents, "The Protoevengelium of James", etc. do not constitute part of Sacred Tradition (big "T") but are rather pious Christian writings from the early centuries and the Church does not endorse them as if they are infallible or even necessarily true. The authoritative basis of the doctrine of Our Lady's perpetual virginity is the unanimous concensus of the Fathers. This has always been considered the "orthodox" understanding of Our Lady, or the correct doctrine, that which is what the Apostle's have handed down. The Church dogmatically defined Our Lady's perpetual virginity way back in the Patristic era. But of course there are many logical reasons for believing it besides the fact that it's an authoritative part of Tradition. The Word is the only-begotten of the Father, it is fitting that the Word Incarnate be the only-begotten of His human mother. See my previous post for more reasons.

check my post, there's a little t, i was very careful

anyway, i know. this just illustrates early Christian beliefs, it is by no means infallible, but these are the explanations of people who were closer to the time of Mary and Jesus, closer to the culture of the time of Mary and Jesus... it pulls a lil weight that way. :cool:

[cmotherofpirl]

THe proto of James does not carry the same weight as the Church Fathers. It is legend and the Fathers are Sacred Tradition.

[Aloysius]

i know

the weight i said it carried was that it was written by people who were a lot closer to the culture and the times... it's not written by some Catholic writer 2000 years after Christ oceans away from where he lived.

i was careful about it, i made sure to put a LITTLE t... it's just a lil tradition, not scripture, not infallible, just shows what faithful lay Christians at the time were tryin to proove when they wrote, faithful lay Christians with prolly a better understanding of the culture of Jesus/Mary than any scholar nowadays could ever figure out ;)

[Laudate_Dominum]

anyway, i know. this just illustrates early Christian beliefs, it is by no means infallible, but these are the explanations of people who were closer to the time of Mary and Jesus, closer to the culture of the time of Mary and Jesus... it pulls a lil weight that way

No worries Al, I figured you knew this. I was just making the clarification for the sake of any protestant brethren who might otherwise get the wrong idea.

Peace brother.

[cmotherofpirl]

Yep, we know you know, but we don't always know what anybody else knows. :cyclops:

[littleflower+JMJ]

i think what we all needs to be reminded is that like others mentioned before but deservers to be said again cuz thats the whole thing is that the Blessed Mother had made a vow of chasity and had given her virginity to God and St. Joseph made a vow to God too. thats why marriage was so scary for both of them, but within that marriage they kept that vow that had each gave themselves completely to God and helped each other in marriage, God was first in their hearts, they loved God more than anything and they trusted God. they did not become weaker, they became stronger to their vows since they held that first in their heart. St. Joseph understood the BLessed Mother's love for God, and vice versa. their love was something that was beyond what we know it as. so they had no intention of breaking that vow to God before nor after they got married, because they had decided long ago to give themselves fully to God, "do unto me according to thy will" and they did by doing God's will and plan for Him. they had a chaste marriage, and the BLessed Mother being the Mother of God, fulfilled her role to the most perfection that this world may ever know. remember, Mary is Ever Virgin.....is and always will be...so its important to remember that. She is Mother of God, forever, and she Upholds that title.

their marriage was one beyond what any of us can comprehend being that they are major parts of God's divine plan for His Son, Jesus to be born.

we try to understand it as what we know marriage of today, of what it means, but the Holy Family and marriage between the BLessed mother of Heaven and St. Joseph was rock solid, they both knew God's plan..........and followed it.....to the every end

it is thru their love of God that could not be shaken by ANYTHING of this world that we come to understand the Holy Family was anything but ordinary but really was a match made in heaven by God himself. and its what made their marriage 'out of this world'and pure, sacred, holy and good for it was all part of God's divine hand

[littleflower+JMJ]

also if you read and learn more about St. Joseph you will learn that he saw Mary, as you and I see her, as Mother of God, completely in awe of her, being her protector, he knew she was special, he knew She was the Mother of Jesus, Queen of Heaven, Pure and Holy, the one chosen and created sinless by God, and upheld his duty faithfully to God and Her till the end of his life. St. Joseph is like you and me, honoring the BLessed Mother, as the Mother of God that She was, the same way you and I do.

and he had God's special Role to protect her and be Jesus' foster father that he fulfilled.

thus, St. Joseph knew God's plans and knew who Mary was and upheld that.

again, the Holy Family was a image of God and His love in the most highest way that its hard to even compare it to what our defintion of marriage may be

[Laudate_Dominum]

Amen littleflower! That was beautiful.

[littleflower+JMJ]

Amen littleflower! That was beautiful.

thanks i just hope i helped those understand more about the BLessed Mother. ^_^

it all comes down to the BLessed Mother and St. Joseph keeping their promise of purity, chasity and virginity that they had made and given to God, guided by the Holy Spirit, and both of them having the graces bestowed from God to be triumphant in His plans, that their promise, that each made individually to God, was never broken.

Blessed Mother, Ever Virgin, pray for us! :wub:

God bless,

+JMJ

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Also, she had a baby with GOD! Having sex with another man, even if he was your husband, would be like cheating on God! I can't imagine His wrath on that one!

See...I don't see how Joseph consencratin his marriage to Mary would be like cheating on God. I mean....God, in essence, gave Joseph and Mary to each other, correct? So, why would it have been such a horrible thing for them (Mary and Joseph) to express their love for one another by becoming one sexually? Honest, serious question.

I just find it hard to believe that it would have been forbidden. As the Christmas story is told, Joseph was going to divorce marry because he had thought that she had been unfaithful to him (Jospeh). So, how would she have been unfaithful to Joseph (or him think that) if their marriage wasn't going to be like any other?

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Bro Adam,

I didnt get to read all 4 pages of this so I will just post something interesting that Sacred Scriptures says. This is a writting from St. Augustine on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

It is written (Ezech. 44:2): "This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it; because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it." Expounding these words, Augustine says in a sermon (De Annunt. Dom. iii): "What means this closed gate in the House of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that 'no man shall pass through it,' save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this--'The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it'--except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of angels shall be born of her? And what means this--'it shall be shut for evermore'--but that Mary is a virgin before His Birth, a virgin in His Birth, and a virgin after His Birth?"

As Augustine says (De Nup. et Concup. i): "The Mother of God is called (Joseph's) wife from the first promise of her espousals, whom he had not known nor ever was to know by carnal intercourse." For, as Ambrose says on Lk. 1:27: "The fact of her marriage is declared, not to insinuate the loss of virginity, but to witness to the reality of the union."

I hope this helps answer your questions. God Bless

[Aloysius]

isn't it just as likely Joseph thought she had broken her vow to God...?

early Christians believed Mary was forever virgin and wrote many tales to proove that fact relying on stories told at the time that were less than 300 years old and knowledge of a culture that existed less than 300 years b4 them..

that story is the most reliable story we could have about these specific details. that Mary vowed her perpetual virginity and Joseph took her in to protect her after she stopped living at the temple. the Gospel story does not contradict. it did not mention anything about plans to sleep together, and Joseph was afraid she had slept with someone else, anger is justified there in either case either if it was because he thought she had broken her vow to God (and that vow was the reason St. Joseph had been chosen to take her in and protect her) or he was expecting to sleep with her. the question is, who's version, who's interpretation, should we hold to be more likely true?

my money's on the faithful lay ppl of the 3rd / 4th centuries...

[Laudate_Dominum]

They didn't need to express their love sexually because that's not how their live was. The highest form of union is spiritual not physical. Like St. Francis and St. Clare, or St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross.

Mary was the chosen Mother of God. It doesn't make sense that she would have more kids after that (see previous posts). And it doesn't make sense that they would have sex without desiring more children (can you see then using a condom or birth control pills?) Mary and Joseph's vocation was to raise Jesus and be an image of the Trinity as the Holy Family. They weren't normal people, their son was not a normal person and their love for each other was not normal, it was higher. There were not single mothers back then like now. The society did not have a place for single mothers. Of course Mary would need a husband, but the ever virgin Mother of God is not for any man to have sex with. She is totally God's, like a nun. And when Joseph was considering "sending her away quietly" because he didn't yet know everything that was going on it does not suggest anything about their marriage, it is saying that he was trying to protect her because they law would require her to be stoned to death for adultery. It shows that he knew she didn't commit adultery and was trying to spare her from those penalties.

Read the earlier posts because they explain much of the patristic and biblical evidence. The main thing is that from the beginning of Christianity the correct belief was that Mary was ever-virgin. This is how it was, this was God's plan. It would have been wrong for Mary and Joseph to have sex because Mary was for God alone. Mary is the image and model of the Church, the Church is virgin, bride, and mother. This is what Mary is too, forever. And bride in the first place to God, just like God is Christ's Father and St. Joseph is often described as his step-father.

Mary and Joseph were more deeply united through Christ and through their fidelity to God and love for Jesus than natural marriage unites spouses. They had a perfect spritual union that was more like how we are united in heaven, where, as Christ says, men and women are not united in marriage but are like the angels.