Political Systems/society And The Church

[SJP]

Do you believe that there is an ideal political system for the Church to function in? If so, what system? (This can be an established system or one that you've made up yourself.)

What would the ideal Catholic society look like?

Discuss/Debate

Edited June 12, 2007 by SJP

[Socrates]

Actually, this topic was discussed quite a bit on here in years past.

I actually don't believe there is any one ideal political system, as all have advantages and disadvantages, and what works best varies in different times and places.

Basically, I'd say the ideal system is one in which the government respects the Church, and does not try to suppress it nor control it. The government should reflect Christian truth, but not try to overstep its bounds, and I's say it should generally be small and unintrusive.
Religious belief should not be radically divorced and separated from public life (as with modern liberalism), but at the same time there should be a certain degree of separation of Church and State (the Church should not be an arm of the state, nor vice-versa.)

I'm sure Aloysius will have much to say on this topic.

[Era Might]

I believe that the accretion of political power in Christendom was in many ways a warning from God. He used modern society to restore the Church to the role she played in the first few centuries, which was not at all political. I believe her temporal power was allowed by God because it was necessary for the time. Someone had to shape civilization, and it was inevitable that the Church would take the lead. But this came with many dangers and temptations, particularly for the clergy. The Church should have enough temporal power to carry out her eternal mission; anything beyond this lures her people away from the eternal to the temporal. I don't believe there is an "ideal" political system because the Church stands above them all. I do think republicanism is probably the closest model we have to the Church, which is ruled by a college of Bishops and animated by the needs of the people. The American maxim "of the people, by the people, for the people" has a certain characteristic of the early Church, a peaceful cooperation between the people and the clergy; the people even elected their own clergy. The revolution against faith that gave birth to modern society, and which many Popes spoke against, would have no place in a Christian society. But that doesn't mean that the essential structure of our government is incompatible with Christianity.

[quote]The State may not impose religion, yet it must guarantee religious freedom and harmony between the followers of different religions. For her part, the Church, as the social expression of Christian faith, has a proper independence and is structured on the basis of her faith as a community which the State must recognize. The two spheres are distinct, yet always interrelated.

--Pope Benedict XVI, Encyclical Letter "Deus Caritas Est"[/quote]

[Groo the Wanderer]

I vote for a pizzaopoly...with extra coagulated milk.. yum.

[mortify]

I personally don't know enough to decide, but for some reason many traditional and conservative Catholics view some form of monarchy as being the best form of government, as for why I'm not quite sure.

[GodChaser]

If I could allow to be invovled in this, I think Libertarinism would be best for Christianity to survive and flourish even.

Respecting the inviduals right to live their life the way they want, while at the same time standing firmly on the truth is a marvelous way to live life. Even today, one of my friends, who is a stripper, asked me if she could ask me some questions about God, because she is sick of living her life the way she is living it right now. Wow, eh?

I know, everybody thinks Catholicism is the church, but I choose not too see those bounderies. I think every single one of you know that I am a follower of Christ, seeking to learn about who he is, and living a life to glorify him. And I see many people who are followers of the Christ here, who want to learn all about who he is and to live a life to glorify him.

Edited June 12, 2007 by GodChaser

[kujo]

I would have to agree with Socrates on this one. Any form of political government MUST respect the moral tenets of Christianity-- respect and belief in the dignity of human life from natural conception to natural death, an ardent desire to achieve peace, love of the poor, disdain for evil, respect for the individual's rights, etc.

Call me an uber-patriot, but I'd have to say that, at least conceptually, America's system of governance COULD be ideal if it were to change a few things in order to foster a greater moral upbringing of our nation. We already have a Bill of Rights, which GUARANTEES the protection of our civil and personal liberties. But where we need change is at the quality of life level. I like the way Senator Sam Brownback puts it: we have to be pro-life, for all life. In that regard, there should be a Constitutional amendment that bans abortion, embryonic stem cell research, euthanasia, and human-animal hybrid cloning. Furthermore, there needs to be a mandate in our country to take care of the temporal needs of our "little ones." They need adequate healthcare, they need proper education, they need food and shelter and love. This is where our government can involve itself with religious/philanthropic institutions, giving them the necessary means to achieve these ends. There would be no need for "government entanglement" in religion because it would simply be funding programs that take care of its citizens, whom they are charged to serve in the first place.

An ideal Catholic society already exists: it's called Heaven. Let's work to bring all that we can of Heaven down to earth.

Edited June 12, 2007 by kujo

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='mortify' post='1293332' date='Jun 11 2007, 08:16 PM']I personally don't know enough to decide, but for some reason many traditional and conservative Catholics view some form of monarchy as being the best form of government, as for why I'm not quite sure.[/quote]

Monarchy used to be the best form of government for the Church because it represented the ideal of Catholic unity. One faith, one church, one pope, and one ruler. This was the state of affairs during Medieval Christendom, but since homogenous societies are no longer a practical reality, a monarchy is no more ideal than any other form of government.

[SJP]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1293712' date='Jun 12 2007, 02:04 PM']Monarchy used to be the best form of government for the Church because it represented the ideal of Catholic unity. One faith, one church, one pope, and one ruler. This was the state of affairs during Medieval Christendom, but since homogenous societies are no longer a practical reality, a monarchy is no more ideal than any other form of government.[/quote]

So would it be appropriate to form a homogenous Catholic socitey?

Now, in one respect, such an action would obviously be appropriate, we are continuously attempting to convert all nations to Chirst.

However, would it be appropriate to build a community/society of existing Catholics to live amongst themselves? I'm thinking here of the new town of Ave Maria.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='SJP' post='1293748' date='Jun 12 2007, 11:53 AM']So would it be appropriate to form a homogenous Catholic socitey?

Now, in one respect, such an action would obviously be appropriate, we are continuously attempting to convert all nations to Chirst.

However, would it be appropriate to build a community/society of existing Catholics to live amongst themselves? I'm thinking here of the new town of Ave Maria.[/quote]

I don't see why not. That is roughly what Amish people do. It would only be inappropriate if the community tried to exert control over outside elements. Any such community would have to be founded upon the willing cooperation of every member.

[kujo]

[quote name='SJP' post='1293748' date='Jun 12 2007, 02:53 PM']So would it be appropriate to form a homogenous Catholic socitey?

Now, in one respect, such an action would obviously be appropriate, we are continuously attempting to convert all nations to Chirst.

However, would it be appropriate to build a community/society of existing Catholics to live amongst themselves? I'm thinking here of the new town of Ave Maria.[/quote]

I think that it would be awesome to set up a solid community of Catholic families that could live in proximity to each other. I could definitely envision a group of families living in an area together, having a travelling-homeschool program, having a parish, and living in accordance to Catholic tradition. Anybody wanna coordinate this?

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1293256' date='Jun 11 2007, 09:36 PM']I vote for a pizzaopoly...with extra coagulated milk.. yum.[/quote]

If we're voting, I vote for myself as King of the Universe.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1293712' date='Jun 12 2007, 12:04 PM']Monarchy used to be the best form of government for the Church because it represented the ideal of Catholic unity. One faith, one church, one pope, and one ruler. This was the state of affairs during Medieval Christendom, but since homogenous societies are no longer a practical reality, a monarchy is no more ideal than any other form of government.[/quote]
The monarchs of Medieval Christendom actually had far less actual power than the bureaucratic "democractic" governments today. Feudal lords still exercised considerable power.
Absolutist Monarchism and the "Divine Right of Kings" were actually not Catholic ideas, but grew out of Protestantism and the Enlightenment (which ironically would soon lead to revolution against monarchy).

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1294154' date='Jun 12 2007, 09:11 PM']The monarchs of Medieval Christendom actually had far less actual power than the bureaucratic "democractic" governments today. Feudal lords still exercised considerable power.
Absolutist Monarchism and the "Divine Right of Kings" were actually not Catholic ideas, but grew out of Protestantism and the Enlightenment (which ironically would soon lead to revolution against monarchy).[/quote]

True, but the seeds of the concept of the "Divine Right" streches far back in history. That papal sancation of Charlemange's coronation is a good example.

And I suspect political absolutism lent itself well to the spread of the Protestant Reformation, but there seems to be plenty of examples of it prior to the Reformation that would rule it out as an exclusively Protestant phenomenon. Particularly in Spain and France the tendency toward centralization and complete political sovereignty was well under way before any of Luther's stirrings.

[Budge]

The main problem with Rome as well as apostate Protestantism/evangelicalism is Dominionism. Marriage of church and state.

[SJP]

[quote name='Budge' post='1297408' date='Jun 17 2007, 06:32 PM']The main problem with Rome as well as apostate Protestantism/evangelicalism is Dominionism. Marriage of church and state.[/quote]

Well Budge, what political system would you propose?

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='Budge' post='1297408' date='Jun 17 2007, 05:32 PM']The main problem with Rome as well as apostate Protestantism/evangelicalism is Dominionism. Marriage of church and state.[/quote]

People who divorce faith and the church from government, knowingly or unknowingly advocate for the subjegation of faith and the disunity of the human person.

[Budge]

[quote]
Well Budge, what political system would you propose?[/quote]The one America had for some time....when the Constitution was still adhered to.

[quote]

People who divorce faith and the church from government, knowingly or unknowingly advocate for the subjegation of faith and the disunity of the human person.[/quote]

When church marries government it ALWAYS corrupts the church. I point to all the evangelicals who were suckered into thinking the Republican party was "God's" party not just things to do with Catholicism.

[Justified Saint]

I think Joey's point is a good one. The person cannot be so neatly divded between the political self and the spiritual self. The solution to such a division of man doesn't always mean a theocracy, but only political arrangements that go beyond merely some feeble notion of "toleration."

[Budge]

When church and state become totally emeshed, there is no more accountablitiy.

For a truly free society, the church should not merely be an ARM of the state.

or vice versa.

Theocracies always fail.

Dominionists look to this world and ITS POWER.

It is interesting how RECONSTRUSTIONIST TYPES AND CATHOLICS look more to THIS WORLD, then the real kingdom of Jesus Christ.

"MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD"

Does that ring a bell?

I think that one is in the catholic BIble too.