The Anonymous Christian Theory

[journeyman]

[quote name='Budge' post='1298590' date='Jun 19 2007, 04:17 PM']So the Koran contains "God" as well?[/quote]

If I remember my OT, God made promises to Ishmael and his mother . . . in addition to the promises to Abram/Abraham

[quote name='Budge' post='1298590' date='Jun 19 2007, 04:17 PM']Or maybe you find "God" in a tree?[/quote]


I believe you can find God anywhere you are willing to look - in nature, in reason, in joy, in tragedy


Trees

I THINK that I shall never see
A poem lovely as a tree.

A tree whose hungry mouth is prest
Against the sweet earth's flowing breast;

A tree that looks at God all day,
And lifts her leafy arms to pray;

A tree that may in summer wear
A nest of robins in her hair;

Upon whose bosom snow has lain;
Who intimately lives with rain.

Poems are made by geniuses like me,
But only God can make a tree.


Joyce Kilmer. 1886–1918

[Budge]

zippy speaks...

ZOOOM

I found God in a teacup

I found God in a tree

My God lives in a piece of bread!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1298871' date='Jun 20 2007, 08:27 AM']zippy speaks...

ZOOOM

I found God in a teacup

I found God in a tree

My God lives in a piece of bread!

[/quote]

Once again, Budge, you refuse to learn what the Church actually teaches. We don't believe God lives in a piece of bread. We believe the piece of bread becomes God.

Anyway, we don't believe that God is present in multiple religions...we just believe He can use the few things that are correct in other religions to lead people into the fullness of truth.

[Fidei Defensor]

God uses false religions to guide humanity to the one true savior, Jesus Christ, by playing on the parts of their religion that correspond to truths about Jesus. It's not that hard to understand, Budge... Once God works his magnificant plan, they become true believers in Jesus.. they don't keep their false religions. God can and does use any means he wishes in order to bring people to himself.

Not everyone has the luxury that [i]you[/i] do, knowing God personally and all. Some people are born believing their religions because that's what they are taught. It's also sometimes a family thing. Whatever. However, God does not condemn those who [b]never had the opportunity to know Him.[/b] If someone says "oh, that silly Jesus. I Don't believe that carp" then yes, God may very well condemn them. However, if someone never was able to know Jesus, or had some obstacle to knowing him, he's not going to say "oh, that's too bad for you. I guess the cards didn't work out in your favor.."

You are limiting God severely. Let's let him decide who to beaver dam.. not you. Thanks.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1298597' date='Jun 19 2007, 11:26 PM']I don't really care what other people would say. God is limitless so to try to limit him would obviously be idolatrous. To say that he is limitless does not mean to say he is everywhere as in some kind of pantheistic understanding of God. You would do well to grasp the distinction.[/quote]

Like most fundamentalists and most religious relativists (e.g. members of the UU church) Budge does not have the necessary subtlety of thought to grasp the distinction. Everything has got to be in one of two colours - black or white. She needs answers, not questions. Secure solid answers. Everything's got to be easy. Without that comfort blanket, she doesn't feel safe.

It's very upsetting to see someone who is so scared of God.

And I'm not talking about holy fear. I'm talking about the kind of cowardice and shame that led Adam and Eve to hide away in the garden. You want to reduce God to something you can 'understand', Budge. And it's not going to happen. This is the supreme idolatry.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1299614' date='Jun 21 2007, 05:23 PM']Like most fundamentalists and most religious relativists (e.g. members of the UU church) Budge does not have the necessary subtlety of thought to grasp the distinction. Everything has got to be in one of two colours - black or white. She needs answers, not questions. Secure solid answers. Everything's got to be easy. Without that comfort blanket, she doesn't feel safe.

It's very upsetting to see someone who is so scared of God.

And I'm not talking about holy fear. I'm talking about the kind of cowardice and shame that led Adam and Eve to hide away in the garden. You want to reduce God to something you can 'understand', Budge. And it's not going to happen. This is the supreme idolatry.[/quote]

That is well said. All fundamentalisms are reductionistic since they arise from the singular fear of being wrong or being uncertain. The temptation of idolatry is perhaps among the oldest and is certainly strongly linked to the sin of pride.

On the other hand, Catholicism is all about subtelty and nuance. And while it can be summed up by the creedal statements, the faith is inexhaustible since its source is inexhaustible.

[Budge]

[quote]
Once again, Budge, you refuse to learn what the Church actually teaches. We don't believe God lives in a piece of bread. We believe the piece of bread becomes God.[/quote]Sure..thats still living in it...[quote]

Anyway, we don't believe that God is present in multiple religions...we just believe He can use the few things that are correct in other religions to lead people into the fullness of truth.[/quote]

So a pack of lies mixed with one or two "truths leads people to God?

[quote]
God uses false religions to guide humanity to the one true savior, Jesus Christ, by playing on the parts of their religion that correspond to truths about Jesus. It's not that hard to understand, Budge...[/quote]Hey if that works, why not become a Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim or Wiccan?, since God uses false religions to lead people to Jesus, you cant lose!
[quote]

Not everyone has the luxury that you do, knowing God personally and all.[/quote]

I didnt know God,

and Ill be frank it wasnt some wishy washy universalist liberal Prots and Catholics, who beleived the false religions lead to Jesus nonsense who got me to know Christ, it was a Christian who actually PREACHED THE GOSPEL.

God is the one who determines to go to heaven or not, but he did make the Christians job very clear {preaching the gospel to all nations}, and while Catholics promote the GET OUT OF HELL FREE CARD, they promote what is essentially universalism.
[quote]

Like most fundamentalists and most religious relativists (e.g. members of the UU church) Budge does not have the necessary subtlety of thought to grasp the distinction. Everything has got to be in one of two colours - black or white. She needs answers, not questions. Secure solid answers. Everything's got to be easy. Without that comfort blanket, she doesn't feel safe.[/quote]Sounds very UU of you.

They also renoucned certainty in faith and knowing exact truth through Gods Revelation {Bible} In fact as a UU, I was trained and taught that exact religious truth was impossible for man to "know". More of Satan's lie...HATH GOD SAID? like he did to Eve...

And what is wrong with certainty in God, and knowing that there are exact answers for ones life in Gods Word and to be found in relationship with Him?

# Luke 1:4
so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

I know half of you would flip out if I told you that I have been blessed with knowing Gods word is true 100%.

The Bible says certainty is a good thing, that you may know the certainty of the things you hvae been taught...yep

you folks think certainty is a bad thing, only the domain of brain addled Bible banging thumpies...

Liberals love moral relativism and telling the world there is no certain truth.

Im going with the Bible on this one!.

[quote]

It's very upsetting to see someone who is so scared of God.

And I'm not talking about holy fear. I'm talking about the kind of cowardice and shame that led Adam and Eve to hide away in the garden. You want to reduce God to something you can 'understand', Budge. And it's not going to happen. This is the supreme idolatry.[/quote]

Afraid of God?

Actually one should have biblical fear of God.

Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
[b]
How is believing Gods Word REDUCING HIM?[/b]

I believed in the "god" of all religions while UU...Ive been there, the unlimited "force", the god of nothingness...actually satan to be frank.


Daniel 11:38 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

38But in his estate shall he honour the god of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

When you speak of the unlimited god, to people here, this is the god of "forces" the antichrist.

youre unlimited god theory discounts, the will, commandments and more of the one true God, in His Word.
[quote]On the other hand, Catholicism is all about subtelty and nuance. And while it can be summed up by the creedal statements, the faith is inexhaustible since its source is inexhaustible.[/quote]

Im not going to argue there.

Not at all.

Catholicism is all about SUBTELTY and nuance...

Proverbs 7:10 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)


10And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and[b] subtil of heart[/b]


# Luke 1:4
so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Budge' post='1299929' date='Jun 22 2007, 03:00 PM']Hey if that works, why not become a Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim or Wiccan?, since God uses false religions to lead people to Jesus, you cant lose![/quote]
You know very well that's not what I meant. You ignored the rest of what I said.
[quote]Once God works his magnificant plan, they become true believers in Jesus.. they don't keep their false religions.[/quote]
God uses those religions to [b]bring them out of false beliefs[/b] and to Jesus, the truth. They leave behind their false religions.

You're trying to accuse us of believing that one can become a member of a false religion and thereby gain salvation. Wrong. God wants all to come to know and love Jesus. He brings people to Jesus by any means. However, that then requires a person to abandon false beliefs.

Are you denying that God can use the tiny bit of truth within the false religons to bring people out of them? Or are you trying to say that he just leaves them to flail and die in their error?

Edited June 23, 2007 by fidei defensor

[Budge]

[quote]God uses those religions to bring them out of false beliefs and to Jesus, the truth. They leave behind their false religions.[/quote]

This is nonsense.

the false religions HAVE NOTHING to do with them coming to Jesus.

They become Christians like I did, by HEARING the WORD OF GOD and the GOSPEL.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Budge' post='1300131' date='Jun 23 2007, 07:02 AM']This is nonsense.

the false religions HAVE NOTHING to do with them coming to Jesus.

They become Christians like I did, by HEARING the WORD OF GOD and the GOSPEL.[/quote]
Sorry, It's my fault for not being clear enough. I still don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. I'll try to word it differently.

I understand what you are trying to say, and completely agree. Everyone MUST hear the word of God! However, those people who are unfortunate enough to believe in a false religion may not be open to hearing God's word. However, a very select few beliefs in their religion may help to open them to God. God uses these things so that when they hear the Word, they can come to believe it, like you did, and ABANDON their false religions.

I completely understand that you are against belief in false religion. So are we. Falsehoods come from the devil! However, God is more powerful. He can pull people away from evil and falsehoods by introducing Truth. When people hear the real truth, they may examine their "truths" that are similar to the real truth and say "well, this sounds similar, but it's not the same. After hearing the Word of God, I can see now that this is the real truth, even though my beliefs are similar.. they are wrong." It's about helping people think and seeing that they may believe things that are similar, but they are actually wrong. The goal is to bring them out of their falsehoods to the real truth, which in some cases, is similar to the twisted truth they believed. This is because satan twists the truth.

However, God can use these falsehoods to help people become OPEN so they can finally see that what they believe is FALSE and then they can leave the evil behind.

[Fidei Defensor]

Quick example - What about those people who are presented with the Word but do not respond and ignore it?

It is my understanding that you believe that all that is needed is presenting the Word, and hearts will be turned. I'm not denying that can happen. God works wonders. But we have the more realistic view that God can also work in MANY ways to bring people to himself.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='journeyman' post='1298645' date='Jun 19 2007, 05:20 PM']If I remember my OT, God made promises to Ishmael and his mother . . . in addition to the promises to Abram/Abraham[/quote]
The promises made to Ishmael and his mother were not fulfilled by the Qur'an.

Mohammad is not a true prophet, and Islam is a false religion. Catholics must not embrace the heresy of theological indifferentism in order to satisfy modern "politically correct" sensibilities.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1300224' date='Jun 23 2007, 02:43 PM']The promises made to Ishmael and his mother were not fulfilled by the Qur'an.

Mohammad is not a true prophet, and Islam is a false religion. Catholics must not embrace the heresy of theological indifferentism in order to satisfy modern "politically correct" sensibilities.[/quote]


yeap

[Budge]

[quote]However, those people who are unfortunate enough to believe in a false religion may not be open to hearing God's word.[/quote]IF they are not open, then the parable of the sower applies, that in other words is ROCKY SOIL.

[quote]
However, a very select few beliefs in their religion may help to open them to God. God uses these things so that when they hear the Word, they can come to believe it, like you did, and ABANDON their false religions.[/quote]

[u]Nothing[/u] in UUism had anything to do with me becoming a Christian.

In fact that took hearing the gospel, Christian prayers I didnt know about til later, and the Holy Spirit.

[quote]
However, God is more powerful. He can pull people away from evil and falsehoods by introducing Truth.[/quote]But this is NOT done via false religions, this is where me and you seem to part ways.

[quote]
However, God can use these falsehoods to help people become OPEN so they can finally see that what they believe is FALSE and then they can leave the evil behind.[/quote]

The falsehoods are not used, it happens IN SPITE OF THEM.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1300502' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:52 AM']The falsehoods are not used, it happens IN SPITE OF THEM.[/quote]

I agree.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Budge' post='1300502' date='Jun 24 2007, 08:52 AM']IF they are not open, then the parable of the sower applies, that in other words is ROCKY SOIL.
But this is NOT done via false religions, this is where me and you seem to part ways.[/quote]
Okay, more clarification. I agree, the true purposes of false religions are not to bring people to Jesus, obviously. False religions come from the devil. But do you believe that God would abandon those who have been trapped by false religions? Or rather, would be bring people out of them? Where we differ is that Catholics believe that God can work in many ways to do that, which include using the very few truths that a religion may have in order to get the believers to see that the rest of what they believe is false.

I understand your contempt for false religions, though. It's completely justified. They twist the truth and mock God. However, UU is not your usual false religion. We're talking more about Hinduism, Judaism, Islam and the traditional false relgions. Perhaps with a religion like UU, hearing the truth was enough to break the spell of the lies.

Here is an example - Most religions believe in a god of some kind. That is a truth they have, that God exists. Their view of God may be incorrect, but the actual belief in a divine being is correct. Also, many religions believe in a savior of some kind. That's also a correct belief. There is a savior. They just have the wrong one, one that doesn't exist. If we start there as a talking point, we can eventually show them that Jesus is the real savior, and that their's is just a myth. Because Jesus was a real person, he really existed in time and space. Their's is just a story. We aren't saying they're correct in believing about their savior, just that they are correct about a savior existing. But we believe in the true one, and work to show them why Jesus is the true savior.

It's not about saying "well, they believe in a savior, that's better than nothing." Rather, we convince them, without condemning them and turning them off to Jesus, that instead of their mythological savior, they should believe in Jesus.

[123]

Wow, Budge, you have gone beyond not knowing, to wanting not to know.

[KnightofChrist]

I agree... yet it would seem to be she has always been so closed to truth....

[Budge]

[quote]Here is an example - Most religions believe in a god of some kind. That is a truth they have, that God exists. Their view of God may be incorrect, but the actual belief in a divine being is correct.[/quote]

They follow false "god"s, and Im sorry they dont merely "misunderstand" "god", they are under the sway of a false spirit. For a true covnersion you do not just have them "rename" things, you must have them break away from their false religion including the false spirit running the show and come to the one true God.

Gloria Iesus, not wanting to know what?

Im the one here against universalism...does that mean youre for it?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Budge' post='1300987' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:38 PM']They follow false "god"s, and Im sorry they dont merely "misunderstand" "god", they are under the sway of a false spirit. For a true covnersion you do not just have them "rename" things, you must have them break away from their false religion including the false spirit running the show and come to the one true God.[/quote]
Again, we don't disagree here.

What we disagree about is you seem to believe that shouting at non-believers and telling them they're wrong will somehow get them to believe in Jesus. We prefer to take a more charitable method and actually bring them to the truth by helping them understand the true God.

I think you'll find that many more people become true believers when you sit and actually discuss things they know about rather than shoving bible verses in their faces and telling them they'll go to hell. Not only will they laugh at you, but if they actually for some reason "convert" out of fear of hell, that's for the wrong reason anyway. They don't want to love Jesus, they just want to not go to hell.

I believe that's our only sticking point. Do you or do you not agree that the best method to bring about true conversion is to talk things out? Or do you prefer blunt truth? I'm not saying that being blunt doesn't have it's advantages sometimes, but human nature tends to not like to be told their wrong flat out, rather, it's better to discuss, [b]while not giving in to falsehoods[/b] in order to truly understand a person and to actually help them see why Jesus is the true savior.

Edited June 25, 2007 by fidei defensor