How Do You Say "no" To An Archbishop?

[Veritas]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1298985' date='Jun 20 2007, 01:30 PM']Dinner is just dinner....I brought the wine, he made the pasta. Simple....

We met at a large parish Mass I was liturgist and musician for and then we worked together the next day at another Mass, entirely by coincidence. I'm pretty well known in the Chancery office in my archdiocese and also work with our judicial vicar at a parish. Since I work at a large parish, he comes out to pray with us relatively frequently so we have a lot of contact.

In regards to seminaries....I'm not concerned about learning the wrong stuff. I'm concerned about NOT learning the right stuff. Seminaries don't prepare men for parish ministry. They prepare them to use the index in the Catechism. There is little formation for personnel management, multicultural concerns, and general parish leadership. I want to pastor souls to more active service to Christ, formed and transformed by the liturgy and commissioned for real service to the Kingdom. So rare is it that a pastor is formed to do that.[/quote]

+

You've got to know the meat first. There are lots of pastoral opportunities (and demands) along with good seminary formation. I know someone you should talk to.

[inDEED]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1297959' date='Jun 18 2007, 03:07 PM']I don't see what weather has to do with you becoming a priest. Maybe I'm missing something.[/quote]

I'm in the same boat...

[journeyman]

I didn't see anything about weather . . . but CMom's signature line changes from time to time, and perhaps your browser is picking up a new/old one ??

Here's what I saw:

The ethic of inclusion in the gospels could be stated:
You can come as you are and leave behind what you can,
but you may not stay as you were or do as you will.

–The Rt. Rev. Francis Gray

[Dismas]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1298986' date='Jun 20 2007, 01:41 PM']I refuse to pastor any flock with a surrounding average temperature of less than 71 degrees Fahrenheit.[/quote]

If I remember correctly, the spiritual temperature of Ars, France was well below freezing. Then entered the worst student in the seminary of Lyons. The rest is history.

Are you called to priesthood? I don't know. What I do know is that an Archbishop may see in you something he knows his archdiocese needs, badly.

Now I don't know you, and I can't call on your vocation. Perhaps you are called to be a priest religious, or a brother. Perhaps you are called to marriage.

What I do know is that a priest gives me Jesus. What I do know is that a priest's hands are my Lord's when he absolves me.

Does a priest need to know basic finances? Yes, but there's such thing as good advice and help.

Does a priest need to know how to speak publicly? Definitely. Sure you can and should take classes on this, but in the end it is more a craft than a skill. More an art than a science. You need practice and get solid advice from those you trust.

As for personnel management, it's easier than you think when you remember you're the dad and they are your children, even if they are rebellious, tantrum-prone, middle-aged adolescents. The rest is forms and checks.

As for multicultural concerns, give what you can when you can for the sake of all their souls. Don't betray one group for the sake of another, and remember you are the dad, they aren't. (Just remember that bilingual masses are mostly incomprehensible to everyone, even for those who know both languages - the gears really grind).

As for church leadership, yup, you're the dad, they aren't. Talk to your dad, and other dads. Pick up how they handle things best. Trust in your bishop, the Holy Father, and most of all Jesus. Sure, you'll botch here and there as any human, but as long as you hold true and stay firm, you'll make an excellent priest. Also, it doesn't hurt listening to Dr. Ray Guarendi on the radio, as you will learn how to be a good dad.

Just remember, a priest gives us Jesus first and foremost. We, the Church militant, are literally dying for good priests.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1300326' date='Jun 23 2007, 09:47 PM']If I remember correctly, the spiritual temperature of Ars, France was well below freezing. Then entered the worst student in the seminary of Lyons. The rest is history.

Are you called to priesthood? I don't know. What I do know is that an Archbishop may see in you something he knows his archdiocese needs, badly.

Now I don't know you, and I can't call on your vocation. Perhaps you are called to be a priest religious, or a brother. Perhaps you are called to marriage.

What I do know is that a priest gives me Jesus. What I do know is that a priest's hands are my Lord's when he absolves me.

Does a priest need to know basic finances? Yes, but there's such thing as good advice and help.

Does a priest need to know how to speak publicly? Definitely. Sure you can and should take classes on this, but in the end it is more a craft than a skill. More an art than a science. You need practice and get solid advice from those you trust.

As for personnel management, it's easier than you think when you remember you're the dad and they are your children, even if they are rebellious, tantrum-prone, middle-aged adolescents. The rest is forms and checks.

As for multicultural concerns, give what you can when you can for the sake of all their souls. Don't betray one group for the sake of another, and remember you are the dad, they aren't. (Just remember that bilingual masses are mostly incomprehensible to everyone, even for those who know both languages - the gears really grind).

As for church leadership, yup, you're the dad, they aren't. Talk to your dad, and other dads. Pick up how they handle things best. Trust in your bishop, the Holy Father, and most of all Jesus. Sure, you'll botch here and there as any human, but as long as you hold true and stay firm, you'll make an excellent priest. Also, it doesn't hurt listening to Dr. Ray Guarendi on the radio, as you will learn how to be a good dad.

Just remember, a priest gives us Jesus first and foremost. We, the Church militant, are literally dying for good priests.[/quote]

Your points are well taken, but I fear you may oversimplify the pastoral duties of a diocesan parish priest. Sure, there is a paternal element of the pastoral relationship, but also remember there are people with much more diverse life experience than you could ever possibly have and the role will not alwyas be so clearly defined. There are staff members in the US with doctoral degrees and 25 years experience in ministry. Many seminaries give precious little time to pastoral formation, while the laity are immersing themselves in it. To simply say "I'm the dad and I say so" is recipe for disastrous results (I've seen it happen all too frequently - a hot-headed priest thinks he knows everything because he had oil smeared on his hands and he burns every bridge in sight). By the way, my dad died last month, so we aren't really speaking...

Also, remember a parish is also a civil corporation with a budget of, in some cases, well over $1 million. Am I really trained and competent to administer that budget?

In terms of multicultural concerns, I'm not worried about bilingual Masses. I'm concerned about pastoring a flock made up of an old German parish merged with a Hispanic community, one dying and one just beginning to thrive. I worry about being able to minister to a dying way of life while a new way of life is taking root.

These are my concerns...not reasons to say "no"...just concerns.

[Veritas]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1300487' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:50 AM']Your points are well taken, but I fear you may oversimplify the pastoral duties of a diocesan parish priest. Sure, there is a paternal element of the pastoral relationship, but also remember there are people with much more diverse life experience than you could ever possibly have and the role will not alwyas be so clearly defined. There are staff members in the US with doctoral degrees and 25 years experience in ministry. Many seminaries give precious little time to pastoral formation, while the laity are immersing themselves in it. To simply say "I'm the dad and I say so" is recipe for disastrous results (I've seen it happen all too frequently - a hot-headed priest thinks he knows everything because he had oil smeared on his hands and he burns every bridge in sight). By the way, my dad died last month, so we aren't really speaking...

Also, remember a parish is also a civil corporation with a budget of, in some cases, well over $1 million. Am I really trained and competent to administer that budget?

In terms of multicultural concerns, I'm not worried about bilingual Masses. I'm concerned about pastoring a flock made up of an old German parish merged with a Hispanic community, one dying and one just beginning to thrive. I worry about being able to minister to a dying way of life while a new way of life is taking root.

These are my concerns...not reasons to say "no"...just concerns.[/quote]

+

Nothing worth doing is ever easy. No one ever said being a priest is an easy job.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1300524' date='Jun 24 2007, 11:35 AM']+

Nothing worth doing is ever easy. No one ever said being a priest is an easy job.[/quote]

True dat....isn't that what the kids say nowadays?

[Dismas]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1300487' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:50 AM']Your points are well taken, but I fear you may oversimplify the pastoral duties of a diocesan parish priest. Sure, there is a paternal element of the pastoral relationship, but also remember there are people with much more diverse life experience than you could ever possibly have and the role will not alwyas be so clearly defined. There are staff members in the US with doctoral degrees and 25 years experience in ministry. Many seminaries give precious little time to pastoral formation, while the laity are immersing themselves in it. To simply say "I'm the dad and I say so" is recipe for disastrous results (I've seen it happen all too frequently - a hot-headed priest thinks he knows everything because he had oil smeared on his hands and he burns every bridge in sight). By the way, my dad died last month, so we aren't really speaking... [/quote]

My condolences and prayers for your father. As for my oversimplification, yes I did mean to do so. Yes you are going to come across a wide variety of personalities and a wide variety of backgrounds and experience regardless of your future vocation and profession. Quite possibly, you will have a few people much more experienced than you working as subordinates. Yes, there is a need for cool, collected management with some experience, and sadly, the best way to learn how to manage is to do it. Yes, I agree that a hothead for a priest is a walking disaster, and that is usually based on personal arrogance as opposed to paternal confidence.

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1300487' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:50 AM']Also, remember a parish is also a civil corporation with a budget of, in some cases, well over $1 million. Am I really trained and competent to administer that budget?[/quote]

Well, picking up working knowledge in accounting and budgeting these days is useful regardless of your vocation. Sadly, I've seen engineers nearly tank the businesses they work for by not thinking of the bottom line. Even so, in every parish I have dealt with, you are not without allies who are often very experienced at this sort of thing.

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1300487' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:50 AM']In terms of multicultural concerns, I'm not worried about bilingual Masses. I'm concerned about pastoring a flock made up of an old German parish merged with a Hispanic community, one dying and one just beginning to thrive. I worry about being able to minister to a dying way of life while a new way of life is taking root.[/quote]

You wouldn't happen to be talking about my old home parish? It's tough, and I really did mean that you can only give what you can. While the Germans may be saddened, frustrated, and even angry at losing their hold, as long as you don't betray them while slavishly appeasing your Hispanic sheep at every turn, the good majority of them will accept the changes. Sadly, I've seen the Germans and Italians utterly abandoned when the new priest came in. I've also seen the Hispanics marginalized to almost nothing in another parish.

In all, these are challenges, but having a degree in dealing with all of them doesn't guarantee success in any of them. I will pray for your discernment one way or the other, according to His will.

[Era Might]

Are you ready to proclaim and die for the truth as the Church understands it and save souls?

That is what you need to be a Priest. Everything else is secondary. Our Lord didn't ask the Apostles (all Jews) if they understood the Gentiles, he told them to take the Gospel to the ends of the earth. They faced cultural problems between Gentiles and Jews, but they learned as they went.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1300571' date='Jun 24 2007, 02:02 PM']Are you ready to proclaim and die for the truth as the Church understands it and save souls?

That is what you need to be a Priest. Everything else is secondary. Our Lord didn't ask the Apostles (all Jews) if they understood the Gentiles, he told them to take the Gospel to the ends of the earth. They faced cultural problems between Gentiles and Jews, but they learned as they went.[/quote]

Good point, but I would say that proclaiming and dying for the Gospel of Christ is something ALL Christians should be willing to do - not just priests. What sets a priest apart in that respect?

[Era Might]

The Priest is an icon of Christ. The primary duty of a Priest is to offer the Sacraments, which are the ordinary means of grace and salvation. He is also a representative of the Church in a way that the laity cannot be. His ministry is an extension of the ministry of the Bishop. This comes attached with practical administration (such as finances), but no Priest will ever go to hell because he was a poor administrator (unless he was was purposely negligent). Many Priests may go to hell because they did not fulfill their primary duties: to offer the Sacraments, to proclaim the truth according to the teaching of the Church, and to make the people holy. We must all proclaim and die for the Gospel, but the Priest is our shepherd. He must protect the sheep on the narrow path. Parents don't know how they will deal with every problem that children bring, but they undertake their vocation with faith and trust in God's grace; like Priests, they learn as they go. I'm not trying to minimize the practical concerns of a Priest, but if you have a vocation you can learn what you need to learn. What matters most is that you want to serve God and help his people become Saints.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1297934' date='Jun 18 2007, 03:37 PM']Its not a career, its a call.
Very simple.

If you are called by the God, you simply say yes.
If you are not called by God, you say no.

Equivocating that you don't like the current climate is a poor excuse of an answer to the Archbishop AND to God.
God doesn't ask our opinion of the climate or condition of the Church, He just expects us to wade in and start fixing it.

read my little blurb below.[/quote]
I say this with the upmost level of respect.. but every time you post, to me anyway, you come off as very condescending.

That being said, I've been around here for a long time, and I know that you are very loving and kind. However, sometimes, your responses don't show it.

[PedroX]

fidei defensor: You haven't been here all that long, and Cmom is a mom, not condescending.

VaticanIILiturgist: If God is calling you, then you will be prepared as He sees fit, not as we see fit. The most important lesson I've learned in the seminary is to trust. Trust my formation, trust the formation staff, trust the Bishop, trust the vocations director and trust GOD.

It can seem very overwhelming, but it will all work out to God's glory as long as we trust.

peace...

[bonoducchi]

I have to be careful when selecting music for my parish, because there is a recessional song that always makes we want to call up my diocesan vocation director (also my opera buddy) and sign up.

Refrain:
"With full voice and a joyful shout,
God's name we will proclaim.
With thanks and praise enkindling,
the message lives the same.
For the love of Christ compels us,
for the love of Christ supports us,
for the love of Christ urges us on:
the love of Christ urges us on!

Verses:
1. Our God of grace and mercy,
who has called and chosen us,
is glorified through justice, faith and love.

2. Sent forth to reap the harvest now,
coheirs with Jesus Christ,
we heal, we preach, we spread the news of love."

[sismaria]

I think your arguments against becoming a priest are quite shallow and sound like rationalizations to have an excuse not to truly discern.
But your lack of openness and trust that God can form you despite the limitations of any seminary program (because they are all made up of humans which will always be imperfect) to me indicate that perhaps you might not be called to be a priest. If you are, I think God would have to adjust some of your attitudes for Him to be able to teach you what He needs to, no matter what program you are part of.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='sismaria' post='1301004' date='Jun 24 2007, 11:54 PM']I think your arguments against becoming a priest are quite shallow and sound like rationalizations to have an excuse not to truly discern.
But your lack of openness and trust that God can form you despite the limitations of any seminary program (because they are all made up of humans which will always be imperfect) to me indicate that perhaps you might not be called to be a priest. If you are, I think God would have to adjust some of your attitudes for Him to be able to teach you what He needs to, no matter what program you are part of.[/quote]

Was that encouragement or a rebuke? I can't quite tell....

[Maria]

Both?



[quote name='Dismas' post='1300326' date='Jun 23 2007, 10:47 PM'](Just remember that bilingual masses are mostly incomprehensible to everyone, even for those who know both languages - the gears really grind).[/quote]
Tebbly sowwy, but nope. Just about all our diocesan stuff is bilingual, and there are tons of other bilingual stuff here, and no one (or almost no one) has a problem with it. It works out really well. Of course, I live in a city where you switch languages with some frequency in any case, so...

[TotusTuusMaria]

J.M.J.

It is just a meeting. It is not like you two are going to sit down and start filling out applications for the seminary. I think you should meet with him. I mean, what exactly do you think is going to happen that you are so fearful of just meeting and talking with him? It seems to me like you know how to say no, and everyone here is suggesting ways for you to say "yes".

[shortnun]

I've read through the responses thus far on this thread and I'm trying to chose my words carefully and constructively contribute to this conversation. My first question is this: V2Lit, do you see "priest" and "pastor of a parish" as the same thing? Being a priest does NOT mean you have to be a pastor. If you enter a diocesan seminary, it may be very likely though.

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1298985' date='Jun 20 2007, 01:30 PM']...

In regards to seminaries....I'm not concerned about learning the wrong stuff. I'm concerned about NOT learning the right stuff. Seminaries don't prepare men for parish ministry. They prepare them to use the index in the Catechism. There is little formation for personnel management, multicultural concerns, and general parish leadership. I want to pastor souls to more active service to Christ, formed and transformed by the liturgy and commissioned for real service to the Kingdom. So rare is it that a pastor is formed to do that.[/quote]
I agree--especially with your last line. I attend a Catholic graduate school/house of formation for a religious order. Here religious men and women study along side lay men and women. Time and time again--especially after I interned with the DRE at a parish--I am thankful that I've had classes for academic formation (doctrine, etc) [u][b]AND [/b][/u]ministerial/professional formation (leadership skills, class/race/gender ministry). Finding a balance b/w the academic and the ministerial isn't easy--but it's to the detriment of the church overall if it's not the goal for priests and laity in ministerial training.

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1300487' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:50 AM']... There are staff members in the US with doctoral degrees and 25 years experience in ministry. Many seminaries give precious little time to pastoral formation, while the laity are immersing themselves in it. To simply say "I'm the dad and I say so" is recipe for disastrous results (I've seen it happen all too frequently - a hot-headed priest thinks he knows everything because he had oil smeared on his hands and he burns every bridge in sight). By the way, my dad died last month, so we aren't really speaking...

Also, remember a parish is also a civil corporation with a budget of, in some cases, well over $1 million. Am I really trained and competent to administer that budget?

In terms of multicultural concerns, I'm not worried about bilingual Masses. I'm concerned about pastoring a flock made up of an old German parish merged with a Hispanic community, one dying and one just beginning to thrive. I worry about being able to minister to a dying way of life while a new way of life is taking root.

These are my concerns...not reasons to say "no"...just concerns.[/quote]
We read and study case studies just like the ones you describe in my classes. Your experience in ministry is a very real description of what's going on there. And I couldn't agree with you more--they don't become reasons to flat-out deny a call. But they do become very real concerns in discernment.

[quote name='Era Might' post='1300580' date='Jun 24 2007, 02:35 PM']The Priest is an icon of Christ. The primary duty of a Priest is to offer the Sacraments, which are the ordinary means of grace and salvation. He is also a representative of the Church in a way that the laity cannot be. His ministry is an extension of the ministry of the Bishop. This comes attached with practical administration (such as finances), but no Priest will ever go to hell because he was a poor administrator (unless he was was purposely negligent). Many Priests may go to hell because they did not fulfill their primary duties: to offer the Sacraments, to proclaim the truth according to the teaching of the Church, and to make the people holy. We must all proclaim and die for the Gospel, but the Priest is our shepherd. He must protect the sheep on the narrow path. Parents don't know how they will deal with every problem that children bring, but they undertake their vocation with faith and trust in God's grace; like Priests, they learn as they go. I'm not trying to minimize the practical concerns of a Priest, but if you have a vocation you can learn what you need to learn. What matters most is that you want to serve God and help his people become Saints.[/quote]
I agree, it's impossible to know everything you need to know in a career or vocation. And much of that way of life will require a person to "learn as they go." But we can't recklessly advocate walking blindly through life and picking up only what we need to at that very moment. That's why parents can enroll themselves in parenting classes--and why engaged couples go through pre-Cana--and why being a priest or a religious takes YEARS of education formation. We all ought to reflect and learn from previous life experiences. But at the same time, we hone our gifts and become even more aware of the good that God works through as us we prepare ourselves for the vocation He has in store for us. And in my opinion, it is critical that those working in religious ministry--priests, lay workers, religious--have the breadth and depth of training that will equip them to be the best faciliatators of grace possible.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='PedroX' post='1300818' date='Jun 24 2007, 08:13 PM']fidei defensor: You haven't been here all that long, and Cmom is a mom, not condescending.

VaticanIILiturgist: If God is calling you, then you will be prepared as He sees fit, not as we see fit. The most important lesson I've learned in the seminary is to trust. Trust my formation, trust the formation staff, trust the Bishop, trust the vocations director and trust GOD.

It can seem very overwhelming, but it will all work out to God's glory as long as we trust.

peace...[/quote]
Why do you always wait until I'm out of town to pop in for a visit...