Praying To Mary...

[ironmonk]

There are many things in the bible that point to the truth of praying to saints, but one in particular that I post here....

St. Luke 2:34

and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted

35 (and you yourself a sword will pierce) so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

How would hearts be revealed to Mary unless she can hear prayers?

If you wish to see other verses that support the Catholic teachings please go to these links:

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[phatcatholic]

also, for those who are interested or who would attempt to refute this, please first visit the Communion of Saints and Mary entries in the apologetics board.

educate yourself.

[bookofjohn]

I have heard from my priest(Jesuit) that to use the word "pray" is not appropriate, because we don't pray to Mary, rather we ask her for help.

[ironmonk]

I have heard from my priest(Jesuit) that to use the word "pray" is not appropriate, because we don't pray to Mary, rather we ask her for help.

I would say he is wrong. Is English a second language for him?

Praying is asking the saints for help.

Pray does not mean worship like many protestants think, maybe this guy was influenced by the protestant errors that plague our country?

We ask for Mary's help in prayer.

The Catechism, countless letters from the Popes, and saints were all wrong by using the word pray?

Saint Pio, the stigmatist, who spoke with Jesus and Mary - and they visted him, the children of Fatima.... All used the word Pray.

The guy has to be wrong.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[cmotherofpirl]

Nope. The Jesuit is correct.

The original meaning of the word "pray" in old English IS to ask intersession.

pray ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr)

v. prayed, pray·ing, prays

v. intr.

To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.

To make a fervent request or entreaty.

v. tr.

To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.

To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.

To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.

To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.

You will find examples in Shakespeare of this.

Catholics use the word in both senses, protestants use the second sense. THat is why they accuse us of worshipping Mary.

Edited February 6, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Aloysius]

the Jesuit is SOMEWHAT correct. "Pray" as used by protestants, no we can't say we "Pray" to Mary. But "Pray" in the real sense of what "Pray" means as CMOM posted, yes we DO pray to Mary. :cool:

[ironmonk]

Nope. The Jesuit is correct.

No he's not.

To ask a saint is to pray to a saint... to pray to a saint is to ask a saint.

There is no other word that convey's that we are asking someone in Heaven. Therefore it is the correct word to use.

The very fact that there is not another word in English to convey that we are asking someone in Heaven, and that the definition of it has multiple meanings shows that the guy was wrong.

Pray is the correct word to use, it doesn't matter if other people try to equate it to worship in error. What matters is the meaning. If there were 15 meanings for prayer and only one of them meant to 'ask someone in Heaven', then it's the correct word.

Pray does not mean worship. Pray is a way to talk to God, or anyone else in Heaven.

What I would like to know is what word is the "correct" word if not "Pray". If they cannot answer that, then that only proves that the word Pray IS correct.

Catholic.com:

The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term "worship" has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use "worship" in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term "worship" was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (hyper [beyond]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is beyond the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints."

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.

Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term "worship," they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "‘ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakah] me.’"

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakah] you (49:8)." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[dairygirl4u2c]

Here is my take.

Praying with Mary, I realize you do not worship her, is fine, as long doing such is simply out of reverance. I think where most of the reasonable protestants disagree is where people starting asking her for help. Now God is good and I would imagine that an increase of faith through Mary would be sufficient for an intercession. But there really is no need for it when you have Jesus Christ.

Now I realize the Bible says to ask each other for prayers and such. But if I were God, which I am not, I would want the people to implore to me by faith, which praying to Mary accomplishes albeit not through Jesus. So I would imagine it is the increased faith of the individual that actually accomplishes the good prayer since Mary is in Heaven and does not need faith.. then maybe she does and we'll never know God completely save for special rapturous visions to take in as much as we could ever handle.. so I may be wrong.

Also I would say that reverencing Mary is good for a reward at the least, so that may be a cause the reward and not the intercession itself perhaps.

Again let me stress that God is good and there is nothing specifically wrong with utilizing Mary. But I also want to stress that there can and is as the Pope himself has noted sometimes reverence taken too far. Because while there is nothing wrong with an increased faith, and yes I realize we can pray to both Mary and Jesus, but where do we draw the line with Mary?

I just wanted to point all those points out. There really is nothing to debate here the way I see it as long as someone does this in an appropriate and healthy manner. Plus I think typing this made me realize that I bet Mary does indeed have faith, even in Heaven, but still, that's just me. I still would wonder where we would draw the line though, even for asking others? My underlying question is where do we draw the line using the krutch of other's? Maybe never? hmm..

Edited February 7, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[the_rev]

I have always been taught by CCD teachers that we ask of intercession to God, but do not pray to them, for then if we did we would make them like God. Since they aren't God, we don't pray but ask for their prayers for specific intentions.

[VeraMaria]

I have heard from my priest(Jesuit) that to use the word "pray" is not appropriate, because we don't pray to Mary, rather we ask her for help.

we pray with mary :D

[Dave]

we pray with mary :D

Or rather, ask her to pray for us and with us. ;)

[jmjtina]

Where do we draw the line with Mary? That's like asking where do I draw the line loving my future husbands mother? (ahhh, and I am praying for him! ) His mother will help me love him more, possibly teach me things I never knew about him and help me understand him more. The Blessed Mother is 100 times more that. To love Jesus is to love Mary. Mary magnifies Jesus and leads us to him. "Do whatever he tells you" is her command to us. Yes, I know it is not nessarsary (sorry for the mispelings) but if we really love someone, thier family is just as important therefore loving him even more than we did before and loving his family more.

I really love this column, "Squash the Bunkness" check out Something About Mary

Peace and God Bless!

[Sinner]

Sometimes my Mom talks to my Dad for me in ways I cannot express. She intercedes for me and helps me. Verbage aside, I like asking Mary to pray and intercede for me. I think the phrase "pray TO Mary" only brings more misunderstanding to a situation which already has plenty of misunderstanding (regardless of whether is is correct or not).

[foundsheep]

I just wanted to point all those points out. There really is nothing to debate here the way I see it as long as someone does this in an appropriate and healthy manner. Plus I think typing this made me realize that I bet Mary does indeed have faith, even in Heaven, but still, that's just me. I still would wonder where we would draw the line though, even for asking others? My underlying question is where do we draw the line using the krutch of other's? Maybe never? hmm..

What is your oppinion about the "Hail Mary" Prayer?

[Brother Adam]

If you define "prayer" as prots do, then yes it would be very wrong to pray to Mary. If you define it as Catholics do, then it isn't necessarily wrong. none-the-less, the communion of the saints is something that you end up having to decide if your going to have faith in the teaching or not.

And the Hail Mary prayer - flattery! :P

[ironmonk]

Here is my take.

Praying with Mary, I realize you do not worship her, is fine, as long doing such is simply out of reverance. I think where most of the reasonable protestants disagree is where people starting asking her for help. Now God is good and I would imagine that an increase of faith through Mary would be sufficient for an intercession. But there really is no need for it when you have Jesus Christ.

Now I realize the Bible says to ask each other for prayers and such. But if I were God, which I am not, I would want the people to implore to me by faith, which praying to Mary accomplishes albeit not through Jesus. So I would imagine it is the increased faith of the individual that actually accomplishes the good prayer since Mary is in Heaven and does not need faith.. then maybe she does and we'll never know God completely save for special rapturous visions to take in as much as we could ever handle.. so I may be wrong.

Also I would say that reverencing Mary is good for a reward at the least, so that may be a cause the reward and not the intercession itself perhaps.

Again let me stress that God is good and there is nothing specifically wrong with utilizing Mary. But I also want to stress that there can and is as the Pope himself has noted sometimes reverence taken too far. Because while there is nothing wrong with an increased faith, and yes I realize we can pray to both Mary and Jesus, but where do we draw the line with Mary?

I just wanted to point all those points out. There really is nothing to debate here the way I see it as long as someone does this in an appropriate and healthy manner. Plus I think typing this made me realize that I bet Mary does indeed have faith, even in Heaven, but still, that's just me. I still would wonder where we would draw the line though, even for asking others? My underlying question is where do we draw the line using the krutch of other's? Maybe never? hmm..

Maybe you should study instead of guessing.

Fatima, Medjugorje, etc...

http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/bvm.asp

-ironmonk

[ironmonk]

If you define "prayer" as prots do, then yes it would be very wrong to pray to Mary. If you define it as Catholics do, then it isn't necessarily wrong. none-the-less, the communion of the saints is something that you end up having to decide if your going to have faith in the teaching or not.

And the Hail Mary prayer - flattery!

The Hail Mary prayer is from Luke 1.

The Angels of God Hailed Mary... we are not holier than the Angels that are in Heaven, so we should learn something from them.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[dairygirl4u2c]

the Hail Mary

This is a beautiful prayer. The fact that it mostly comes from the Bible makes it moreso.

I still would wonder about the "pray for us sinners" part. Cuz I still don't know where to draw the line with that asking other's to pray for other's business.

That's like asking where do I draw the line loving my future husbands mother?

The loving part I have no question of. Also praying for other's I have no question of. It's the how much to ask other's to pray when I could be praying myself part that I'm not sure about. It makes me think it's the love and respect and faith of the individual constantly imploring that is what really gets the reward, and not necessarily the intercession.

And yes intercession happens, my question is how much do we implore? How much do we implore to Mary when we could be imploring to Jesus? Again the loving I have no question of the limit. (I don't want to start going in circles here)

Also I do know very much about Catholocism, I have studied Catholic apologetics for around four years too. So keep in mind all these questions and observations come from someone who knows what typical websites have, but still did not answer.

Also my earlier observation about relaying what is said instead of blanketly referring someone to somewhere else I need to reiterate because if you know something, you should be able to relay it in plain, simple words. But thanks for the point Ironmonk, I will keep in mind that when searching for an answer on the internet and such, it is best to read things with the question in mind.

Edited February 7, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[jmjtina]

still would wonder about the "pray for us sinners" part. Cuz I still don't know where to draw the line with that asking other's to pray for other's business

funny how so many of us who say this are quick to ask a friend or a pastor to "Pray for them".

It's the how much to ask other's to pray when I could be praying myself part that I'm not sure about. It makes me think it's the love and respect and faith of the individual constantly imploring that is what really gets the reward, and not necessarily the intercession.

I don't know what you mean here. What do you mean by reward....not necessarily the intercession? If you want something special only your dad can give do you ask twice (or more) to yourself if your asking your mom too much? I'm confused with your logic.

And yes intercession happens, my question is how much do we implore? How much do we implore to Mary when we could be imploring to Jesus? Again the loving I have no question of the limit.

You don't have to go to Mary. And the fact that your probably not Catholic, can make it harder for you to understand the devotion Catholics seem to have for Our Heavenly Mother.

Also I do know very much about Catholocism, I have studied Catholic apologetics for around four years too. So keep in mind all these questions and observations come from someone who knows what typical websites have, but still did not answer.

I study my faith as well, was born Catholic, am Catholic and will die Catholic. I don't claim to have all knowledge, and surely don't claim to understand it all. All I know is I love my Mother Church, the Mother of God and Jesus and the Saints. It's not about "give my love only to God" but "since God is love, and He is infinite, he has given me a new family to love." The souls in purgatory, the saints, Pope John Paull II and yes, His Own Mother.

God Bless.

[phatcatholic]

This is a beautiful prayer. The fact that it mostly comes from the Bible makes it moreso.

I still would wonder about the "pray for us sinners" part. Cuz I still don't know where to draw the line with that asking other's to pray for other's business.

The loving part I have no question of. Also praying for other's I have no question of. It's the how much to ask other's to pray when I could be praying myself part that I'm not sure about. It makes me think it's the love and respect and faith of the individual constantly imploring that is what really gets the reward, and not necessarily the intercession.

And yes intercession happens, my question is how much do we implore? How much do we implore to Mary when we could be imploring to Jesus? Again the loving I have no question of the limit. (I don't want to start going in circles here)

Also I do know very much about Catholocism, I have studied Catholic apologetics for around four years too. So keep in mind all these questions and observations come from someone who knows what typical websites have, but still did not answer.

Also my earlier observation about relaying what is said instead of blanketly referring someone to somewhere else I need to reiterate because if you know something, you should be able to relay it in plain, simple words. But thanks for the point Ironmonk, I will keep in mind that when searching for an answer on the internet and such, it is best to read things with the question in mind.

if "praying for others [you] have no question of" then why do u worry about "where to draw the line" in the Hail Mary prayer?

also, as to weighing how much we ask others to pray for us with how much we pray for ourselves to God, i suggest reading 1 Corinthians Chapter 12. in it i feel is an apt defense for asking saints to pray for us. afterall, they are too a part of the body of Christ. so often, non-catholics say, "why pray to saints when i can pray to Christ. we don't need to ask saints to pray for us." yet, we find in verses 20-23:

20

But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

21

The eye cannot say to the hand, "I do not need you," nor again the head to the feet, "I do not need you."

22

Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary,

23

and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety....

many non-catholics seem to see saints, and especially Mary, as these weaker members of the body, if they acknowledge them as members at all. but, i say that they are just as much a part of the body as we are, and even moreso considering that it is only those in heaven who can partake of the beatific vision. they are closer to Christ now then we can ever be here on Earth!

i also say that these saints are the often mentioned "cloud of witnesses" and they care for us. afterall,

24

....God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it,

25

so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another.

26

If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.

i provide all of this to say to you that we are designed to care for each other as members of the body. and saints are members of the body only b/c they are in Christ and they have been saved by him. therefore, praying to saints to intercede for us does not take away from Christ. instead, it affirms the work that he has done for us. therefore, i see no point in weighing the time we spend praying to God w/ the time we spend asking our fellow members of the body for intercession.

both actions give praise and glory to God

pax christi,

phatcatholic