Religion Tactics

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='naralas' post='1310413' date='Jul 3 2007, 12:46 AM']Blah! I can’t think of anything to write without putting volumes and volumes down! I’m sick of filling pages and pages then having to go back to the previous pages and elaborating on them... can I just ask:

Why do you believe in God? Keep in mind that I will strike at everything you say unless you have what I deem to be a valid reason. If you “don’t care what I think” feel free to express that, but I will reply by expressing what you don’t care to hear.

If you hope that any of the following:
Pascals Wager
Intelligent Design
Origin of the Universe
Faith

or any other things like that are sufficient, feel free to bring them up, but be warned, to name a few, those are what can most be easily crushed.

And please, if you think I’m a beaver dam fool, I [b]beg[/b] of you to post here. I hate people who tell me I am wrong and then run and hide.[/quote]

[quote]If you hope that any of the following:
Pascals Wager
Intelligent Design
Origin of the Universe
Faith

or any other things like that are sufficient, feel free to bring them up, but be warned, to name a few, those are what can most be easily crushed.[/quote]

How about Moral Law?
[quote]those are what can most be easily crushed.[/quote]

this is OBVIOUSLY opinion.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i find it ironic that groo cites okham's razor for God when i cite it for an argument against God.
if the world is complex, does it make sense to say something even more complex made it? if God can just be, then the world can just be. it seems God is the unneeded extra addition. So I do not follow his argument that okham's razor should apply when arguing for God.

[dairygirl4u2c]

a postieri, it makes sense to say that God's existance can be proven. the CC says that it can be proven. using the causation theory. It's rational to argue something caused the bike to move. it's less reasonable to say a specific thing like a speghetti monster caused us. But, a priori, we cannot say for sure that God exists. All the arguments against it add up, ultimately. Even a postiori, it's only circumstantial evidence, but I think it's enough to warrant saying they "proved" it. if you disagree, i don't think it's unreasonable.
as far as I know, the CC is not perfect in its teaching anyway.

[jckinsman]

[quote name='naralas' post='1310745' date='Jul 3 2007, 06:02 AM']Alright, the attempted suicide story:
I hope you don't fancy yourself a Christian and carry a firearm still? Jeez, you could shoot someone! Nothing food comes from that >_<

And to the reply following that, I may have made a tiny mistake: "I hate WHEN people" not "I hate people".

Now, you can stand there and tell me you feel God, or you feel some presence. Now I'm not saying your insane, but you can see and hear anything in the right (unfortunately, a better word might be "wrong") emotional state so that kind of foundation for belief really does not jive with me. People can be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt in a lot of really stupid things. Now it's easy to say "well what proof do YOU have" to me. But as much as Christians seem to dislike this point, the burden of proof lies 100% on you. You claim there is something that we cannot see or taste or touch or smell, and when people desperately turn to it, they will feel it. Sounds like Psych 101 to me.

Now also, I'm not sure your familiar with intelligent design theory, but you mentioned it in your post, about how your body is proof of God. Just FYI, that is what I meant when I said intelligent design. Our world, and the complexities of our being make it seem like we are purposeful. However I like to start with rain as a simple idea.

Rain sustains life. Without the rain we would die. The rains purpose seems to be to keep us here. However, without an environment with water and rain we would not be here to think about it. Our world is expiring, and self destructive, and human beings themselves are flawed and weak. We are not here because of some intelligent design scheme, we think up some design scheme because we are HERE to be thinking.

But then theres still the valid point: how are we here then? Well look around the universe. Not a whole lot of life is there? Why us? Why here? Simple. It's pretty frickin unlikely that life could evolve and sustain itself for millions of years and reach the point that humanity has! It's not that we are genetic lottery winners who happened to be on the right planet, as I said before, we are here thinking about it BECAUSE it just happened to work. We are on a funny little planet that grew weird little people, and they developed societies, and all sorts of silly explanations for what they could not understand.

Now we are here thinking everything has a purpose because it works. When in reality, it firstly does not have a purpose, we are assuming that BECAUSE it seems to be working

And secondly, it is not working very well. Our planet is dying... good work God.[/quote]
...........................And funny little people that have big, big minds and think they can out wit- out scheme, and out last their Creator, is nothing new. I 'am pretty sure HE is used to it, and HE laughs! Its has happened from the dawn of creation.
You are funny if you really think that these silly comments have much to do with GOD! Your brain is nowhere near the capacity of GOD. You can think that it is,brains do work that way.Yet I choose with my small brain to believe in God. You on the other hand would like to render your soul to your own intellect. A feat I have learned, to be quite daring and willful.
To whom will we say is your moral compass? You seem to have this finite about the enviorment and guns and such,yet under your NO GOD rule,a certain sense of what is right and what is gone is lost. Don't you think????
Though shalt not Kill FOR INSTANCE,why hold that as any sort of standard if there is none. Where do you think the start of all these"things that are good for us" come from????(commandments??? )You said human nature pretty much "smells of elderberries" an we are killing ourselves and the earth,so how on this earth do we come up with anything good if it wasn't for GOD ?????
You are just seeing the fruits of a GODLESS society. NO GOOD<NO GOD ............KNOW GOOD< KNOW GOD.

[prose]

[quote]those are what can most be easily crushed.[/quote]

That is interesting seeing as the most brilliant minds in the world have struggled with these exact arguments for centuries....

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1311294' date='Jul 3 2007, 03:39 PM']i find it ironic that groo cites okham's razor for God when i cite it for an argument against God.
if the world is complex, does it make sense to say something even more complex made it? if God can just be, then the world can just be. it seems God is the unneeded extra addition. So I do not follow his argument that okham's razor should apply when arguing for God.[/quote]


No it does not. Consider matter. Matter itself is incredibly complex, especially when you take into account life. But when you get down it it, it is all made up of atoms. Atomes themselves are simply 8 or 12 (depends on whom you ask) subatomic particles. At it's core, everything is quite simple.

God Himself is simple. He simply IS. His act of will created everything, His act of will sustains everything. Very simple indeed. It is our limited human mentality that tries to make God so complex. We try to put labels on Him, we try to put Him into a box of our own design...in short we try to make Him in our image. You have to let God be God.

So..Occams's Razor applies perfectly.

[dairygirl4u2c]

if God can just be, doesn't it make sense to say that we could just be? why do you need the addition of God?
Adding God does add an extra layer of something unneeded.

unless. it seems like you might be equating God with existance. you're talking about atoms and such and saying "therefore it's simple therefore God exists". You're not explaining the leap from simple to God.
As i said in my initial post, that adds nothing meaningful to the definition of God. If you are defining God as order, or intelligence in the sense that there's order and progress, that's still not too meaningful because you could simply say those things are existance. You have to show more than just that something caused something else because the initial something could be an infinite series of causes. You have to distinguish that meaningfully from God.

Ockham's razor does not mean that the simplest solution is the right solution, just that it usually is. It'd make sense by this principle that the planet probably goes in a perfect circular orbit, but given other things, it goes eliptically. it's still ockhams razor from some standpoints but not all. point being, you don't have to become an atheist to believe that ackham's razor does not apply here and you should acknowledge that.

Edited July 4, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

an interestng thing worth thinking about though, is what exactly do you have to show to show that an intelligence created us? what are the factors of intelligence?
our disagreement might lie in ansering that question. otherwise, i don't know how you're making the leap from saying things are simple to saying therefore God exits.

i'd suppose you'd have ot show that a conscious thought was required. which is kinda what you said "act of will". how does existance prove an act of will? if we could deduce that nothing was keeping things going other than an act of will, then we'd have proof. but we don't have that deduction as things could be kept together by material forces. and those forces came from an eternal line of forces. so, by your definition of God, atoms and existance does not prove God, ie act of will, conscious thought etc.
just circumstnatial evidence with all the stipulations i made in my first post.

Edited July 4, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

If there were no Creator, I seriously do not understand how there could be anything at all. We can talk of evolution, big bang, and any number of theories that, for the sake of this topic, do not need a God to come about. However, without a Creator, there is no material for big bang, evolution - or whatever other theories we have - to work with. If the universe were a house, the most important thing is not how it was built but where the materials came from. A house without the material necessary to construct it cannot be built. The same holds for the universe.

Basically, I pose the the famous question: Why is there anything at all? If our origin really is in some big ball of gas that blew up billions of years ago, how did it get here? It did not [i]just exist[/i].

God bless!

[dairygirl4u2c]

it seems like maybe you're saying that the cause of us is something, and whatever that is, you're gonna call that God. that's teh only way you could be addressing my concerns, but that doesn't define God as anything meaningful.
just asking the question of what made us isn't proving God.

you stated the party line but didn't state how God can just exist.
if god can just be, why can't the world can just be?
if the world is complex, does it make sense that a more complex being would exist to create it?

answer/address those questions instead of just pointing out how odd it is that we could just be. (and not thinking to think about how odd it is that God can just be)

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='jckinsman' post='1311345' date='Jul 3 2007, 04:13 PM']...........................And funny little people that have big, big minds and think they can out wit- out scheme, and out last their Creator, is nothing new. I 'am pretty sure HE is used to it, and HE laughs! Its has happened from the dawn of creation.
You are funny if you really think that these silly comments have much to do with GOD! Your brain is nowhere near the capacity of GOD. You can think that it is,brains do work that way.Yet I choose with my small brain to believe in God. You on the other hand would like to render your soul to your own intellect. A feat I have learned, to be quite daring and willful.
To whom will we say is your moral compass? You seem to have this finite about the enviorment and guns and such,yet under your NO GOD rule,a certain sense of what is right and what is gone is lost. Don't you think????
Though shalt not Kill FOR INSTANCE,why hold that as any sort of standard if there is none. Where do you think the start of all these"things that are good for us" come from????(commandments??? )You said human nature pretty much "smells of elderberries" an we are killing ourselves and the earth,so how on this earth do we come up with anything good if it wasn't for GOD ?????
You are just seeing the fruits of a GODLESS society. NO GOOD<NO GOD ............KNOW GOOD< KNOW GOD. [/quote]

I like this response, especially. If I may speak for my friend, Naralas, he claims to be a moral atheist. Where morality comes from is rationality... anywho that is what I remember from one of our past arguments... I'll wait for the man to come on and give his side... anywho a side note, I was laughing my head off reading all these posts because I know exactly how each of you argue... it's like... worlds colliding. Thanks for the crazy experience everybody

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1311689' date='Jul 3 2007, 09:19 PM']it seems like maybe you're saying that the cause of us is something, and whatever that is, you're gonna call that God. that's teh only way you could be addressing my concerns, but that doesn't define God as anything meaningful.
just asking the question of what made us isn't proving God.

you stated the party line but didn't state how God can just exist.
if god can just be, why can't the world can just be?
if the world is complex, does it make sense that a more complex being would exist to create it?

answer/address those questions instead of just pointing out how odd it is that we could just be. (and not thinking to think about how odd it is that God can just be)[/quote]
The world and the universe are a big mass of rock and various matter floating in space supposedly the aftermath of a primordial explosion. The existence of a Higher Intelligence is beyond my total comprehension. His existence is a mystery and cannot be totally defined. It is logical that He could exist without my knowing how. The universe is different - it can be observed and measured. It makes sense that a Creator Being that is beyong us could just exist, but not a mass of gas and matter.

[dairygirl4u2c]

in your last post you talked about how you dont understand how we'd existwithout God.
now it seems like you're just saying that it makes sense to say God exists.
i agree that it makes sense that he exists. i only contend that you can't definitely prove God's existance. that doesn't seem like what you responded to in your last post.

[naralas]

NOTES TO START:[list]
[*]I've never heard of Richard Dawkins, but I have a lot of faith in the intelligence behind South Park so I will be looking for that episode referenced by someone.
[*]I went over the number of allowed quotes so I just used bold instead
[/list][b]We don't do arrogant and we don't do rude. Neither characteristic is related to maturity or intelligence or good internet conversation because you can't see the others facial expressions and it leads to generating more heat than light.
Versions of the f word are also banned, as we are a catholic site.[/b]

Your accusing me of being immature and unintelligent, (and yes you WILL say that “no I was just saying you don't “appear” to be when you act that way” which is BS and the only way I can avoid having to listen to it is by pointing it out now)

[b]If there is no God why not be "evil"?[/b]

Evil is stupid. Categorical Imperative.

[b]If there is no God why not "hate"?[/b]

Hatred hurts only your self. Nobody cares you hate them unless you are evil to them. And we are back to evil being stupid.

[b]If there is no God does love exist? [/b]

Love is a creation of man. Man exists (probably)

[b]Without God does life have purpose or meaning? [/b]

No more than what we make of it.

[b]if you hold it together and rebuke people with a little less vehemence you won't look like you are desperately scrambling for verbal cover.[/b]

Your seeing what you want to see. I am eager and encouraged, yet you think I'm jumping into this to prove something to myself. I am blunt and honest, yet you think I'm rude and offensive. Your letting perspective vito logic.

[b]Playing the odds...[/b]

That is Pascals Wager. The thing I talked about in my first post. When you limit it to “what you get out of it” then perhaps your right. However thats a cowards game.

[b]However unlikely it is that an omnipotent and omniscient Creator created the universe, it is infinitely more unlikely that it all came about by accident. If nothing else, explain how the first 2 dust particles bumping together came into being, please.[/b]

Once again, the accident theory only works if God exists... if we are not planned, then we ARE an accident. It just happened to happen this way. We may be on our way out faster than you know.

[b]I must invoke Occam's Razor here: when two explanations are presented, even when both are highly unlikely, the least complex must be the correct one. Ergo God exists. QED.[/b]

Finally someone who knows the source of the idea's they speak. ^^ Good work. Now my response to this is simply: God is simple? My explanation is: we cannot know. That's about as simple as she gets. This argument, however, is the best one presented against me thus far, because it comes down to being subjective, what you find to be [i]simple[/i] depends on the person. So logic really fails to come to any universal answer, so I chose to step away from this one. But don't accuse me of dodging it, just, if you peruse it, then I would be endeavoring instead to prove it a bad point on which to argue, rather than wrong.

[b]to say you have to disprove God[/b]
I will stop you here; disproving God? I chose not to believe an unlikely answer simply because it's the only one I can grasp. God very well COULD exist. I just don't think so. I may just not understand who you are addressing or in what manner.

[b]So we have the spaghetti monster on the one side and the bike on the other, ha.[/b]
Neither is on your side. God is a first mover. The bike had a mover, but not a first mover. The spaghetti monster is nonsense, and yet people believe it... so I guess thats somewhat in your favor

[b]this person has brought God into his own personal logic and has deemed God not likely using his limited knowledge. you cannot explain God using human logic or rationality,[/b]

For a moment the argument was turning to gold. Then someone barfed this BS all over the forum.

God isn't rational! I just know everything! RAWR! If it's about some magical feeling you get we are back to mass hysteria.

[b]God does not need or warrant a scientific explanation. Likewise, religion cannot suffice to explain science[/b]

Religion cannot explain science because that is not its place. Science however, can explain religion fairly well. Or at least, your need for it. I admit miracles are quite a headscratcher, but no logical train has taken me from thinking that my cousin being able to see without glasses or me surviving all my little mishaps that some God decided that in a world of suffering, he will dangle his power in front of us for the purpose of letting us know he is there so we can love him until we die and maybe get rewarded for it?

[b]. It is obvious that this person here with this thread is stuck in his own limited perception of the world. One must transcend to find God.[/b]

This is the classic condition of needing God. You feel important, wise and verified in your existence. That's why it works! If I have to throw out logic (see: all we have) to believe him, then you can keep him.

I wont hold this shoddy argument against the rest of you.

[b=in response to me saying there were certain arguments I could crush]this is OBVIOUSLY opinion[/b]

Indeed. But I do believe it so I felt the warning was warranted

[b]i find it ironic that groo cites okham's razor for God when i cite it for an argument against God.
if the world is complex, does it make sense to say something even more complex made it? if God can just be, then the world can just be. it seems God is the unneeded extra addition. So I do not follow his argument that okham's razor should apply when arguing for God.[/b]

Very clever. I wish I had thought of that.

And I love your signature to death as well. However I do imagine your a believer?

[b]a postieri, it makes sense to say that God's existance can be proven. the CC says that it can be proven. using the causation theory. It's rational to argue something caused the bike to move. it's less reasonable to say a specific thing like a speghetti monster caused us. But, a priori, we cannot say for sure that God exists. All the arguments against it add up, ultimately. Even a postiori, it's only circumstantial evidence, but I think it's enough to warrant saying they "proved" it. if you disagree, i don't think it's unreasonable.
as far as I know, the CC is not perfect in its teaching anyway.[/b]

I simply want to add “unlikely” to circumstantial. I wish we could have an official court to determine if God existed or not and have an agnostic be the judge. Hehehe

Jeff want's me to go to this SONfest thing, if any agnostics ARE there I will ask if we can play that game!

[b]..........................And funny little people that have big, big minds and think they can out wit- out scheme, and out last their Creator, is nothing new. I 'am pretty sure HE is used to it, and HE laughs! Its has happened from the dawn of creation.
You are funny if you really think that these silly comments have much to do with GOD! Your brain is nowhere near the capacity of GOD. You can think that it is,brains do work that way.Yet I choose with my small brain to believe in God. You on the other hand would like to render your soul to your own intellect. A feat I have learned, to be quite daring and willful.
To whom will we say is your moral compass? You seem to have this finite about the enviorment and guns and such,yet under your NO GOD rule,a certain sense of what is right and what is gone is lost. Don't you think????
Though shalt not Kill FOR INSTANCE,why hold that as any sort of standard if there is none. Where do you think the start of all these"things that are good for us" come from????(commandments??? )You said human nature pretty much "smells of elderberries" an we are killing ourselves and the earth,so how on this earth do we come up with anything good if it wasn't for GOD ?????
You are just seeing the fruits of a GODLESS society. NO GOOD<NO GOD ............KNOW GOOD< KNOW GOD. [/b]

Wow. Wow.... you start your argument the same way some bully on a schoolyard would try make some little kid cry. Thats a -20 on your arguments validity off the hop! “EVERYONE LAUGHS AT YOU HAHAHA EVERYONE LAUGHS AT YOU”...

Alright, now, you ask where my rules come from? You know there ARE atheist philosophers right? For the second or third time I shall cite Categorical Imperative, logic, and the general stupidity of acting cruel or evil.

[b]That is interesting seeing as the most brilliant minds in the world have struggled with these exact arguments for centuries....[/b]

The [i]most[/i] brilliant saw in there very composition that they were flawed. It wasnt WHAT they struggled with but the WHO.

[b]His act of will sustains everything. Very simple indeed.[/b]

But as the previous poster said to you: still an unnecessary addition. You have not proven the prime mover necessary at all. However looking down I see they replied to you, and judging by what I've seen of them thus far you will probably be more thoroughly disprove than what I've said. Partly because they are smart, but also because I see no reason to continue on this point because you already failed to disprove their first point.

[b]If there were no Creator, I seriously do not understand how there could be anything at all. [/b]

Yet you can understand/believe in the creator itself? Your avoiding not knowing (see: Mankind has always feared what it does not understand) by knowing without proof or reason. This is roughly the mental equivalent to what I saw Homer Simpson do last night while remodeling his kitchen, which was bash a sledge hammer into an electrical box and have the sh*t knocked out of him, and then try it again assuming it would go better the second time.

[b]Basically, I pose the the famous question: Why is there anything at all? If our origin really is in some big ball of gas that blew up billions of years ago, how did it get here? It did not just exist.[/b]

And I pose the famous slap-in-ye-face response: God CAN?

You all say it's been debated forever, but remember. it's only because of the support of other Christians that their arguments were given any consideration at all. As I said, this is simple to me, as it seems simple to you. Saying the point is argued means nothing. Having something (other than other opinions) on which to stand means a lot. A strong example of what I mean is the fact that I have never been matched for numbers in debate against Christians, it's always at least 5-1, and I have only once ever had someone else with me. It stands to reason that something other than other people is holding me up.

It can't be a support system. I am not even allowed to let my extended family KNOW I don't believe in God.

[b]it seems like maybe you're saying that the cause of us is something, and whatever that is, you're gonna call that God. that's teh only way you could be addressing my concerns, but that doesn't define God as anything meaningful.[/b]

Give me some way to contact you. If your a Christian I want your attention focused on proving this crud to me. Bring those of equal mental capacity to yourself. It will be fun.

If your atheist and have 1700 posts for some weird reason then I will be disappointed.

[b]It is logical that He could exist without my knowing how. The universe is different - it can be observed and measured. It makes sense that a Creator Being that is beyong us could just exist, but not a mass of gas and matter.[/b]

Thats a good one!

This is the reason I've devoted two sides of my cube to this thread!

In response:
Yeah, things we can measure CAN be beyond measure at the same time.
Atoms were not known to us, once upon a time.
Limitations. Some that may even never be surpassed, are the basis of my response, yet again.
Some evolution of humanity, or some other race somewhere in the universe past or present or future, may someday comprehend “the beginning of time” or “the origin of all”, but until your God can be looked at that way, all we can really do is stop with the bleeding origin carp! It only serves to make me repeat myself. When you do that to someone, it does not make them look favorably, but in reality, when the same point can stop you twice , it's obvious that your NOT LISTENING.

[b]i agree that it makes sense that he exists.[/b]

Good Good, so you ARE Christian. I am going to check your profile for an e-mail. Your officially being challenged :-p

I thought you said something earlier about understanding when others didn't believe so I was fairly sure you were Christian, but this confirms it. Didn't wanna assume because it was just circumstantial up to this point :-p (circumstantial but likely at the same time, which is still a few steps ahead of the proof of God, but still not enough to believe!!)

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1311960' date='Jul 4 2007, 12:55 AM']in your last post you talked about how you dont understand how we'd existwithout God.
now it seems like you're just saying that it makes sense to say God exists.
i agree that it makes sense that he exists. i only contend that you can't definitely prove God's existance. that doesn't seem like what you responded to in your last post.[/quote]
I believe that there is [i]no other explanation[/i] for existence than a Creator. I apologize if I have not addressed your questions, as my initial post was directed to the original poster and was not intended to be a response to any of the other posts in this thread (of which I only sort of glanced at some).
[quote name='naralas' post='1312093' date='Jul 4 2007, 05:03 AM'][b]If there were no Creator, I seriously do not understand how there could be anything at all. [/b]

Yet you can understand/believe in the creator itself? Your avoiding not knowing (see: Mankind has always feared what it does not understand) by knowing without proof or reason. This is roughly the mental equivalent to what I saw Homer Simpson do last night while remodeling his kitchen, which was bash a sledge hammer into an electrical box and have the sh*t knocked out of him, and then try it again assuming it would go better the second time.[/quote]
I believe in a Creator because I do not believe a cold, random, material universe just exists. I think it is far more plausible to say that an immaterial, intelligent, Creator Being just exists.
[quote][b]Basically, I pose the the famous question: Why is there anything at all? If our origin really is in some big ball of gas that blew up billions of years ago, how did it get here? It did not just exist.[/b]

And I pose the famous slap-in-ye-face response: God CAN?[/quote]
Yes! He is an infinite Being unlike ourselves, far beyond ourselves. I know that you will be disappointed in this response, but God is a mystery that we cannot fully comprehend. I do not think it is necessary either.
[quote][b]It is logical that He could exist without my knowing how. The universe is different - it can be observed and measured. It makes sense that a Creator Being that is beyong us could just exist, but not a mass of gas and matter.[/b]

Thats a good one!

This is the reason I've devoted two sides of my cube to this thread!

In response:
Yeah, things we can measure CAN be beyond measure at the same time.
Atoms were not known to us, once upon a time.
Limitations. Some that may even never be surpassed, are the basis of my response, yet again.
Some evolution of humanity, or some other race somewhere in the universe past or present or future, may someday comprehend “the beginning of time” or “the origin of all”, but until your God can be looked at that way, all we can really do is stop with the bleeding origin carp! It only serves to make me repeat myself. When you do that to someone, it does not make them look favorably, but in reality, when the same point can stop you twice , it's obvious that your NOT LISTENING.[/quote]
I am not quite sure I understand. If I have made you repeat yourself, I apologize. When I entered this thread, I was not intending to pick up where any other poster left off and was aiming at a unique conversation. Are you saying that one of your stumbling blocks to belief is that God is immeasurable? Because you cannot touch, feel, smell, etc. He is not worthy of belief?