Christian Church Of India

[RJS]

I am in a debate with a fundy about the roots of Christianity etc and he claims:

But here's another non Catholic line of history the Christian Church of India can trace its beginnings to early Syrian Christians (between 100-200 AD) possibly even to Thomas Didymus and Bartholomew.

He got it from Samuel Moffit "History of Christianity in Asia Volume 1"

Has anyone ever heard this info before? Know anything about it?

[PatrickRitaMichael]

Is he talking about the Syro-Malabar Church in Kerala, which is a Catholic Rite in Malayalam (language of Kerala), the one started by St. Thomas the Apostle? If so, then it IS a Catholic church. If not, then I don't know what he's talking about.

Edited February 3, 2004 by PatrickRitaMichael

[M.SIGGA]

It was established by St. Thomas the Apostle, and it is both Catholic and Orthodox. There wasn't a side loyal to Rome until they were converted by the Portugese Jesuits. St. Francis Xavier was one of their greatest evangelists.

[M.SIGGA]

I believe they are officially titled The Malankara Orthodox Church and the Malankara Catholic Church, there is also a group part of the Syrian Orthodox Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

Isn't there somebody here from that Church?

[M.SIGGA]

the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church: http://www.malankara.net/

the Malankara Orthodox Church: http://www.malankara.org/

the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church: http://www.malankara.com/

I'm not one, but last year I dated one, so we had this conversation before.

[RJS]

the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church: http://www.malankara.net/

the Malankara Orthodox Church: http://www.malankara.org/

the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church: http://www.malankara.com/

I'm not one, but last year I dated one, so we had this conversation before.

Thanks everyone!

[PedroX]

I believe that Patrick Rita Michael worships in that rite. I could be wrong...

peace...

[phatcatholic]

the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church: http://www.malankara.net/

the Malankara Orthodox Church: http://www.malankara.org/

the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church: http://www.malankara.com/

I'm not one, but last year I dated one, so we had this conversation before.

woh, that's interesting stuff! thanks bro

[PatrickRitaMichael]

I think the key is tracing a non-Catholic church "possibly" to Thomas Didymus (St. Thomas?). It seems to me that it would be impossible for St. Thomas to start 3 different churches since he's only one person.

I was always taught that I belong to the Catholic Church in India started by St. Thomas -- what other kind of Church could he have started if he was Catholic, with instructions straight from Jesus and the Pope (St. Peter), and the only existing church at the time was the Catholic Church?

My understanding of the 2 other denoms saying they were started by St. Thomas is that he started the Catholic Church in India and the others gradually grew up out of disagreements, just like it happened in Europe and just like many protestants will say that they can trace their origins back the Apostles.

Sigga, good job on homework. How do you know so much?! I am amazed... :)

[PatrickRitaMichael]

all three of those churches, though, are catholic or orthodox so the person you're debating with should really convert from fundamentalist to orthodox!!

[M.SIGGA]

:rolleyes: lol I dated a girl who was half German and half Indian who was Malankara Orthodox. It is one of the least known and most beautiful rites in all of Christianity. If I am still correct, I understand that icons or statues are not usually used, but religious pictures instead. I still have a miniture 3-fold picture shrine to St. Thomas the Apostle on one side and St. Gregorios of Parumala on the other, and the Immaculate Heart of Mary in the middle that she gave me. I hope more people look into this Rite.

[PatrickRitaMichael]

Yeah, we have pictures of Jesus in almost all the rooms of our house. When my non-Indian friends come over, I always wonder what they think about it. But all the other Malayalee Catholics I know have pictures all over their houses, too. It's so crazy... I love it! ^_^

[cmotherofpirl]

Is it a certain picture, a particular image, a cultural thing. or just a regular picture of Jesus.

[PatrickRitaMichael]

We've got a couple of Jesus' with bleeding hearts, a holy family, a last supper, one of those pictures of Jesus w/ the colored rays of light coming out of his heart (I know there's a name...), a Mother Mary with a baby Jesus on her lap... then there are the little pictures, too, that are just around the house. Indians like the holographic kinds, too, esp. w/ gold and bright colors. I think it's a cultural thing to have pictures of God around b/c if you go into Hindu households (there are exceptions, of course) you'll see lots of pictures of Hindu gods, too.

[M.SIGGA]

lol. this is such an honest post PatRitaMic. It's the Sacred Heart. Do you attend the Easter/Passion Liturgy at your Indian Church? Because I heard it is the longest liturgy out of all the Eastern and Western Rites, at least it is in the Orthodox Church. My ex said in Kerala people sometimes pass out from standing up so long!

[thicke]

Jesus w/ the colored rays of light coming out of his heart (I know there's a name...)

Divine mercy! :D

[PedroX]

PRM,

One of my first "Catholic Prayers" was praying the stations of the Cross while walking up to St. Thomas Mount in Madras. The shrine there was beautiful (esp the picture of the Blessed Virgin). I still have the rosary I bought there.

peace..

[PatrickRitaMichael]

Do you attend the Easter/Passion Liturgy at your Indian Church? Because I heard it is the longest liturgy out of all the Eastern and Western Rites, at least it is in the Orthodox Church. My ex said in Kerala people sometimes pass out from standing up so long!

It's been awhile since I've been to mass at the Indian church, actually, b/c I went away to school and I was lucky to be able to attend mass at all (no car, only one catholic church nearby, not many Indians around). But I do remember that when I was little, the mass seemed unbearable b/c it was sooo long. I never saw anyone pass out though.. that would have been interesting!

thanks thicke, it IS the divine mercy. i just noticed today that we have two of those in our house, not one

pedrox, when did you go to india? i'm jealous, i haven't been there for 13 years!

Edited February 6, 2004 by PatrickRitaMichael

[Adeodatus]

Hi guys! I've been too ill to write much lately, but I couldn't resist this one.

My grandmother comes from one of these churches. The generic name for this bunch of churches is "The Christians of St Thomas". We are also called 'Nazranis' (i.e. Nazarenes)---one of the oldest names for Christians.

Thomas the Apostle came to India around AD 52. He established seven churches in what is now the south-western state of Kerala, and then went east and preached in what is now the state of Tamil Nadu. He converted a few thousand people from all the different castes of Hindu society, but irritated the highest caste--the priests (i.e. Brahmins). He was killed with a lance on what is now called St Thomas' Mount, just outside Madras, in AD 72. His tomb is still there, but his relics were translated to Edessa in Syria in the third or fourth century. I think the majority of the relics are now in Ortolana in Italy.

The Christians he converted almost died out a century or so later, but they were reinforced by more bishops coming from the Middle East. Because of this dependence on Christians in the Middle East for bishops, the Christians in India came to be allied with the Assyrian Church, and along with the Assyrians they kept going in and out of communion with Rome and the West, partly because of theology and mostly because of geography.

Even before the Portuguese came, the Dominicans and Franciscans came to the city of Quilon (Kollam) and established a Latin-rite church there (14th century), and they were FULLY in communion with the Nazranis. Later (16th century) when the Portuguese came, they were fully in communion with them too.

It was only when the Portuguese forced some 'Latinisations' on the Indian liturgy, and destroyed their ancient writings that some of the Nazranis rebelled (c. 1650s), and established communion with the Assyrians. These became the Syro-Malabar Orthodox. Later (19th century?) some Catholics rebelled and formed communion with the Syrian Orthodox Church, and became the Syro-Malankar Orthodox Church. The remainder who stayed loyal were the Syrian Catholics and the Latin Catholics.

And even later (early 20th century), groups from the Syro-Malankar and Syro-Malabar churches wanted to re-establish communion with the Pope, and they became the Syro-Malankar and Syro-Malabar CATHOLIC rite churches.

Until Vatican II the liturgical language of these churches was a dialect of Aramaic (called Syriac), the language Jesus spoke. I still remember some of the church songs my gran used to sing in Aramaic, like their version of the Kyrie Eleison and stuff. One of the things drummed into me as a child was that we (my family) had been Catholics for 2000 years, and there was no way on earth we were ever going to be allowed to depart from that!

Kerala is today roughly one-third Christian, a third Muslim and a third Hindu, and they get along peacefully. The majority of the Christians of St Thomas are Catholic (I can't remember the figures, but it's something like 5 million).

Hope that helps!

BTW Jim Caviezel's Aramaic on the trailer of 'the Passion' sounds really authentic! "My God , my God, why have you abandoned me?" is pronounced more like 'Elohi, Elohi, lam-ma shay-baktheni' than what you hear in Holy Week. But it was bound to get distorted if you have Mark writing Aramaic in Greek letters, and then that gets translated into English...