1cor.13:1-3

["Kyrie eleison"]

When I pondered on this scripture verse it really hit me profoundly.

"If I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing" (1Cor.13:1-3).

What does this verse mean to you?

[dairygirl4u2c]

there is more to salvation than faith. to both catholic and prot, love increases their sanctionfication. to the catholic, the sanctification also acts as justification in at least what sanctification has occurred. (any other justification would have to be similar to protestant applied legality as i've not heard how to reconcile this) for prots, the sanctification has to occur but it's not required for justification. "we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone" but, to me, how love works into justification is a minor difference as santification to whatever degree will happen in both faiths. the CC dosn't teach you need X amount of sanctification.
the main difference cath and prots is then is that many prots think you can stop loving and still be saved as you have faith. or, other prots say if you stop loving you were never saved by faith to begin with.
the first is easy to refute, as the bible says you can be a plant that eventally withers.
the ones wh say you never had it to begin with is harder to argue against. you could say they are a plant that withered. but to even call it a plant to begin with is presupposing they were saved which is againsthe once saved always saved theology but could be argued weakly but legitimately in that the person who acted as if they wre saved was a "plant" but not really.
of ocurse, i think that's starting to twist the scripture, but as i said, weak but sort of legit argument.

i didn't explain that thoroughly but.
yes i made this into a faith v. works debate from my perspective anyway.

Edited July 5, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1313414' date='Jul 5 2007, 10:19 AM']there is more to salvation than faith. to both catholic and prot, love increases their sanctionfication. to the catholic, the sanctification also acts as justification in at least what sanctification has occurred. (any other justification would have to be similar to protestant applied legality as i've not heard how to reconcile this) for prots, the sanctification has to occur but it's not required for justification. "we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone" but, to me, how love works into justification is a minor difference as santification to whatever degree will happen in both faiths. the CC dosn't teach you need X amount of sanctification.
the main difference cath and prots is then is that many prots think you can stop loving and still be saved as you have faith. or, other prots say if you stop loving you were never saved by faith to begin with.
the first is easy to refute, as the bible says you can be a plant that eventally withers.
the ones wh say you never had it to begin with is harder to argue against. you could say they are a plant that withered. but to even call it a plant to begin with is presupposing they were saved which is againsthe once saved always saved theology but could be argued weakly but legitimately.

i didn't explain that thoroughly but.
yes i made this into a faith v. works debate from my perspective anyway.[/quote]

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]the main difference cath and prots is then is that many prots think you can stop loving and still be saved as you have faith.[/quote]

I have run across many protestants devoid of love, as well as Catholics. How does one not possess love if they have God in their hearts, mind and soul?

[dairygirl4u2c]

in both circles, if htey have God they have got to have love or they are not saved.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1313442' date='Jul 5 2007, 10:39 AM']in both circles, if htey have God they have got to have love or they are not saved.[/quote]

That is not a factual statement for Protestants, as sects believe that FAITH, is JUSTIFICATION. I realize this may be an elementary topic, but it is the CORE of ADVANCING in your FAITH and ATTAINING the LOVE of CHRIST.

James 2:18 Parallel Translations

NASB: But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

["Kyrie eleison"]

I have been on boards, Budges' is one of them, to name a few, where they CONDEMN Mother Teresa for her charitable work. They[b] claim[/b] that her works could not possibly save her, if she did not convert those that she aided. It was done in vain.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i should not have said it like i did. what i should have said what that it's required in the CC, and in the reasonable prot faiths.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1313484' date='Jul 5 2007, 11:25 AM']i should not have said it like i did. what i should have said what that it's required in the CC, and in the reasonable prot faiths.[/quote]

No worries, Dariy G, what sect do you belong?

[dairygirl4u2c]

and it's not like the reasonable prot i conjure up is comepltely random. that quote was from martin luther "saved by faith alone but faith is never alone"

i belong ot the sect of dairygirl. i am christian who follows the spirit. many follow it and have different beliefs. that's because there's different levels of development and different answers for different situations. i believe in objective truth, but it's hard for us to know what it is whe nit is all the time. for the most part, it's determinable. it can appear to be relative though, but even with that it depends on how you define relative.
this is the creed of dairygirl....

["Kyrie eleison"]

Nice to meet you DairyG, I feel that one day you will come into the fullness of the Catholic Church.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i have been told that by many. and i have considered it and am still. i guess we will see.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]i have been told that by many. and i have considered it and am still. i guess we will see.[/quote]

I can feel it very strongly. Very. What is there to see, about, if you don't mind me asking?

["Kyrie eleison"]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/hf_jp_ii_xxv_en.htm"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/special_...p_ii_xxv_en.htm[/url]

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1313476' date='Jul 5 2007, 04:16 PM']I have been on boards, Budges' is one of them, to name a few, where they CONDEMN Mother Teresa for her charitable work. They[b] claim[/b] that her works could not possibly save her, if she did not convert those that she aided. It was done in vain.[/quote]

Interesting. I fail to see how helping people, showing love, could ever be in vain. I am reminded of the story of the 10 lepers that Jesus heals. He heals all 10 of them, but only one comes back to him and is "converted", so to speak. As St. Francis said, "Preach the Gospel at all times, use words if necessary". Our words mean nothing unless we show God's love in our actions, as well. Or maybe it's just that I'm skeptical of what people say until I see if they also live it.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the old adage is good for the debate table for a lot of people...
"people don't care how much you know, they wanna know how much you care"

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]I can feel it very strongly. Very. What is there to see, about, if you don't mind me asking?[/quote]

the main issue has always been the no salvation outside the catholic church teaching. it seems possible the CC contradicted itself. there's an irony that this is the issue i'm concerned with because it's the issue that identifies me, being outsdie the church. but i'm not interested because of the topic itself, but because of the techical possibility a contradiction occurred. the more i've looked at it, the mroe i realize a lot of what i thought was teaching that backed up the strict interpretation was not what i thought. but there is some out there, but not from the right time periods. see, the strict and loose interpretations of no salvation is what i question.
i'd probably have otget a PhD to really be content with the answers, and perhaps even that wouldn't shed light on the answers. so, given what i know, or could know, i have to make a decision.
there's other things too, but much more minor.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1316045' date='Jul 6 2007, 11:25 PM']the main issue has always been the no salvation outside the catholic church teaching. it seems possible the CC contradicted itself. there's an irony that this is the issue i'm concerned with because it's the issue that identifies me, being outsdie the church. but i'm not interested because of the topic itself, but because of the techical possibility a contradiction occurred. the more i've looked at it, the mroe i realize a lot of what i thought was teaching that backed up the strict interpretation was not what i thought. but there is some out there, but not from the right time periods. see, the strict and loose interpretations of no salvation is what i question.
i'd probably have otget a PhD to really be content with the answers, and perhaps even that wouldn't shed light on the answers. so, given what i know, or could know, i have to make a decision.
there's other things too, but much more minor.[/quote]

DairyG,

Ironic that this issue that you have in question is related to one of the first posts for me at Phatmass. It is a one that I have struggled with as a Catholic, also, but have come to a better understanding of this teaching. You do have to delve into this teaching more to fully understand it and in no way has the Church contradicted itself. The title may be mis-leading but the teaching is right on and has been consistent.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]so, given what i know, or could know, i have to make a decision.
there's other things too, but much more minor.[/quote]

The Church speaks of "implicit desire" or "longing" that can exist in the hearts of those who seek God but are ignorant of the means of his grace. If a person longs for salvation but does not know the divinely established means of salvation, he is said to have an implicit desire for membership in the Church. Non-Catholic Christians know Christ, but they do not know his Church. In their desire to serve him, they implicitly desire to be members of his Church. Non-Christians can be saved, said John Paul, if they seek God with "a sincere heart." In that seeking they are "related" to Christ and to his body the Church (address to the CDF).

On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:
They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).

In your case, DG...you are knowledgeable, if not fully, due to minor issues, about the Church and when resolved should be MOVED to enter into her, FULLNESS.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]Our words mean nothing unless we show God's love in our actions, as well.[/quote]

“God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him” 1 Jn 4:16

The LIGHT of CHRIST is UNSURMONTABLE LOVE. PURE LOVE and JOY.

This should be the HEART and SOUL of our CHRISTIAN FAITH. No act of charity if it is done in the spirit of LOVE is NEVER in VAIN.