Sisters Of Carmel

[Marieteresa]

I am not sure if anyone looked into this Carmel but I was told a couple of years ago that they weren't in union with Rome. That they were connected with some sede-vacantist groups or St. Pius X groups. A friend of mine shead a bit of light on the matter after receiving an email from the community. They stated that they are in union with Rome and aren't connected to the two above groups. Iam confused on there position in the church....Here is a quote from an email that I received from them. Can someone please explain what this actually means?


We are under no ecclesiastical censures or excommunication. However, our status with our local bishop is indeed irregular, currently with no formal approval, as we await the special plan and decisions expected from the papal commission Ecclesia Dei regarding traditional Catholic communities. An arrangement without compromise to holy tradition is currently in the plans of the Holy Father, Pope Benedict, and the work of Ecclesia Dei, and is indeed expected soon. We can add that we enjoy the friendship and support of sympathetic priests and bishops throughout the world.


Their community is very beautiful, they have TLM, wear full habit and make religious goods.


[mod]Link edited (until further clarification of the order's status). --Era Might[/mod]

[Moneybags]

BEAUTIFUL. If I was a woman I'd sure like to join that place! It looks so beautiful. I don't see anything wrong with them. Even if they are with the SSPX, that isn't a problem in my opinion. On the other hand, sede vecantism is a big NO-NO.

[Marieteresa]

They aren't connected with SSPX nor sede-vacantist groups.

[goldenchild17]

They are the sisters you were asking me about I think. They are in town here and recieve their sacraments from Servants of the Holy Family religious community [mod]Link edited (not sure about the status of the order). --Era Might[/mod]
Their intentions are really good and I think one would benefit greatly from joining this community over most other Novus Ordo church orders. I don't agree with them theologically on some key points, but for what they are I wouldn't mind recommending them. There are some very questionable things regarding their priest from SHF, so I'm told from people who have attended his parish. I'd be careful with him.

[Moneybags]

What are these "very questionable things"?

[philosophette]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1314266' date='Jul 5 2007, 06:21 PM']BEAUTIFUL. If I was a woman I'd sure like to join that place! It looks so beautiful. I don't see anything wrong with them. Even if they are with the SSPX, that isn't a problem in my opinion. On the other hand, sede vecantism is a big NO-NO.[/quote]


It seems to be a problem for the holy father and a sign of disobedience.... aren't you entering the seminary? It would probably be advisable to be really careful about offering verbal support to or of SSPX.

[Chiquitunga]

Marieteresa, I would ask Gemma about them, as I remember reading somewhere that she has the right info on them. I'm pretty sure the major problem is that their chaplains are not in union with Rome. They also neither follow the approved [url="http://www.ocd.pcn.net/ocd/n2_usa.htm"]1990 or 1991 Constitutions of the OCD nuns[/url] and are not officially part of the Order - thus they are Sisters of Carmel, and not Discalced Carmelite [i]Nuns[/i]. They also do not take Solemn Vows, but Perpetual Vows, as can be read on their site (Solemn Vows can only be taken by nuns in Orders, eg OCDs, Domincans, Benedictines, etc) All the OCD nuns in the US, they are not listed: [url="http://www.ocd.pcn.net/ocd/n2_usa.htm"]http://www.ocd.pcn.net/ocd/n2_usa.htm[/url]

Their Carmel was a break off from another OCD Carmel in the late 80's during a very difficult time for the OCD nuns. They desired to keep the old observance of 1581. But in 1990, John Paul II approved the 1581s, with very minor changes.

Regarding whether a community is in union with the Church or not, it's important to follow what Rome says on a particular community, and not what the individual community says about themselves. Again, I would ask Gemma about them, and keep them in prayer.

Edited July 5, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Gemma]

I think someone here said that the CO OCDs were on the path to "regularization." They were founded without any diocesan permissions, hence the "irregular" status.

The biggest problem is Fr. Ward, who founded both the Servants of the Holy Family and the Carmelites. I have a letter from the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei" regarding the situation. I hope a few years of prayers for the two groups have helped.

I keep saying that a group may claim to be in communion with Rome, but if ROME doesn't see it that way, then they're not. The only way to be in communion with Rome is to work through the diocese, and the bishop notifies Rome of the group's existence.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Marieteresa]

iam seriously wondering what this arrangement is that was mentioned...maybe this is the path of regulation that was mentioned.

An arrangement without compromise to holy tradition is currently in the plans of the Holy Father, Pope Benedict, and the work of Ecclesia Dei

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1314370' date='Jul 5 2007, 07:30 PM']iam seriously wondering what this arrangement is that was mentioned...maybe this is the path of regulation that was mentioned.

An arrangement without compromise to holy tradition is currently in the plans of the Holy Father, Pope Benedict, and the work of Ecclesia Dei[/quote]

Call the diocese and ask them about the community. I did, and they faxed me some papers concerning them. Maybe it will help you. It did me.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1314370' date='Jul 5 2007, 06:30 PM']iam seriously wondering what this arrangement is that was mentioned...maybe this is the path of regulation that was mentioned.

An arrangement without compromise to holy tradition is currently in the plans of the Holy Father, Pope Benedict, and the work of Ecclesia Dei[/quote]
I don't know the details, but I can tell you that everybody in the Colorado Springs diocese (from what I hear) say they are in schism. They are a wonderful order of sisters and hold a theology much like that of the SSPX, but are an independent order. With the alleged "motu proprio" coming out I would imagine that they might be closer to joining back with the Vatican but right now they are still in an "irregular" situation, so to speak. I would recommend them without hesitation, if it weren't for the questions surrounding Fr. Ward.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1314288' date='Jul 5 2007, 05:35 PM']What are these "very questionable things"?[/quote]
If you want you can email me about it. It's not really too appropriate to talk about someone in public like this. Besides, its kind of hard to prove anything with hard evidence. All I've got is the word of a good number of people who have attended his parish, and the word of someone who once attended his seminary but eventually left. I trust these people but I admit it's not really enough to incriminate a person.

[brendan1104]

We've already posted about these Sisters. Bottom line: they're traditional Discalced Carmelite Sisters in Perpetual Vows, who have the traditional Liturgy but are in an irregular situation, though they're not SSPX or sedevacantist.

Scroll down: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=53296&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...c=53296&hl=[/url]

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1315487' date='Jul 6 2007, 04:41 PM']We've already posted about these Sisters. Bottom line: they're traditional Discalced Carmelite Sisters in Perpetual Vows, who have the traditional Liturgy but are in an irregular situation, though they're not SSPX or sedevacantist.

Scroll down: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=53296&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...c=53296&hl=[/url][/quote]

We all got that. We're trying to figure out what's meant by "irregular".

[Totus Tuus]

Pham,


This is the e-mail I received from them regarding their stance:


[quote]Regarding our position, we are in communion with Rome and are not in any way connected with the schismatic groups that are sede-vacantist, consecrate their own bishops and ordain their own priests. Neither are we connected with the Society of St. Pius X. We are under no ecclesiastical censures or excommunication. Our Mass is not an Indult Mass.

Our Carmel is well known to the Holy See and to the Ecclesia Dei Commission in particular. We enjoy the friendship and support of numerous bishops throughout the world. We are doing our best uncompromisingly, in very difficult times for the Church and in the world, to be all we can for God, consecrated to Him and to His Church.

God bless you,
The Carmelite Sisters[/quote]

I'm inquiring further into what they mean by certain statements in this e-mail.

God bless,
Lauren

[brendan1104]

Irregular as in not under the local bishop, and founded without the approval of the prior general.

[Chiquitunga]

Linking this to the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=53296"]Daughter's of Mary thread[/url] with more on this Carmel and questions about it.

oh, hello! already linked a little earlier!

Edited July 6, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

But guys, if you're looking for a Traditional Carmel it's best to stick with Valparaiso, as it looks for sure now that they are planning a new foundation. At Buffalo they got up 27/28 nuns before the foundation in Brooklyn, so I'm sure Valparaiso will be able to accept more, as there's 23 there now.

Also then there's the Carmels in Buffalo, NY - Alexandria, SD - & Brooklyn, NY - that pray the Office in Latin with Gregorian Chant and everything.

Then there's the plans for the Traditional Carmel near the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming.

So I'd say it's best to stick with these, and then just keep this Carmel in CO in prayer.

[Veritas]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1314266' date='Jul 5 2007, 06:21 PM']BEAUTIFUL. If I was a woman I'd sure like to join that place! It looks so beautiful. I don't see anything wrong with them. Even if they are with the SSPX, that isn't a problem in my opinion. On the other hand, sede vecantism is a big NO-NO.[/quote]

+

Wow. I'm very concerned that you state SSPX isn't a problem when these members (Their
"bishops" at least) have excommunicated themselves... Seems to me you might need to re-think this. And at the very least, people should know this attitude isn't acceptable from a faithful Catholic

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1315487' date='Jul 6 2007, 03:41 PM']We've already posted about these Sisters. Bottom line: they're traditional Discalced Carmelite Sisters in Perpetual Vows, who have the traditional Liturgy but are in an irregular situation, though they're not SSPX or sedevacantist.

Scroll down: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=53296&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...c=53296&hl=[/url][/quote]

Just because they aren't SSPX or sedevacantist does not mean they are in communion with Rome. There are a great deal of independent priests/orders out there that are very similar to both/either SSPX or Sedevacantist but are not attached to either philosophy in particular. There are such individuals/orders in every American state and any number of countries. SSPX and Sedevacantists and SSPV are by far not the only "rad-trad" groups out there not in communion with the Vatican.