Sisters Of Carmel

[goldenchild17]

But I would add that, just like a number of these small groups, with the so-called "motu proprio" supposedly coming out later today (according to yet again the latest date given) this group in particular just might gain communion with the Vatican because of it. Events following the MP would be worth following in this regard as it will be very telling on a number of levels.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1314283' date='Jul 5 2007, 05:33 PM'][mod]Link edited (not sure about the status of the order). --Era Might[/mod][/quote]
oops, should've remembered not to post links like that. sorry

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1315487' date='Jul 6 2007, 03:41 PM']We've already posted about these Sisters. Bottom line: they're traditional Discalced Carmelite Sisters in Perpetual Vows, who have the traditional Liturgy but are in an irregular situation, though they're not SSPX or sedevacantist.

Scroll down: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=53296&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...c=53296&hl=[/url][/quote]
also remember that the sspx would claim that they are also in such an "irregular" situation as they claim they were never truly excommunicated and are still lawfully in communion (unless this has changed recently, I haven't been completely up on my reading of the sspx of late.) So we need to be careful not to excuse someone just because they don't admit to being in schism or not in communion with Rome.

Edited July 7, 2007 by goldenchild17

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1316327' date='Jul 7 2007, 03:03 AM']But I would add that, just like a number of these small groups, with the so-called "motu proprio" supposedly coming out later today (according to yet again the latest date given) this group in particular just might gain communion with the Vatican because of it. Events following the MP would be worth following in this regard as it will be very telling on a number of levels.[/quote]


[url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/bclnewsletterjune07.pdf"]http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/bclnewsletterjune07.pdf[/url]


:

[quote]also remember that the sspx would claim that they are also in such an "irregular" situation as they claim they were never truly excommunicated and are still lawfully in communion (unless this has changed recently, I haven't been completely up on my reading of the sspx of late.) So we need to be careful not to excuse someone just because they don't admit to being in schism or not in communion with Rome.[/quote]

O.K, correct me if I'm wrong here: I was under the impression that the Magisterium made the statement that the bishops who consecrated their own bishops within SSPX (including Lefebvre, of course) were self-excommunicated, but that the organization as a whole was not excommunicated (unlike some organizations which have just been entirely excommunicated a a group). Might have had something to do with vincible v. invincible ignorance on the part of those who participated in their Masses (priests and lay faithful, etc.)
?

Edited July 7, 2007 by Totus Tuus

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1316325' date='Jul 7 2007, 03:00 AM']Just because they aren't SSPX or sedevacantist does not mean they are in communion with Rome. There are a great deal of independent priests/orders out there that are very similar to both/either SSPX or Sedevacantist but are not attached to either philosophy in particular. There are such individuals/orders in every American state and any number of countries. SSPX and Sedevacantists and SSPV are by far not the only "rad-trad" groups out there not in communion with the Vatican.[/quote]


I met a lot of "independent" church-goers on pilgrimage in Chartres. They weren't affiliated with SSPX, but their churches were also not recognized by the local bishop, as you're pointing out.

[jkaands]

Oh, brother.

Looking at this issue from an entirely practical point of view, with no strong opinions either way, I think that it would be very unwise for anyone to enter an order whose status is doubtful at present or which has been doubtful in the past.

1) The order may or may not be ultimately be acknowledged, accepted, recognized, ratified, whatever, by the local bishop, diocese, the Vatican.

2) If it is not, the order will remain schismatic, "out", whatever. Appealing to a limited pool of potential entrants, the group will be forever having to explain and defend its irregular status.

3) If is it accepted, there will inevitably be some individuals within that order who cannot accept the terms of the reconciliation. They may leave, taking others with them, which may split up close friends, and include some of the best and brightest. Or a portion of the order may spontaneousely revert to Rome. This is what has happened to CSMI (I'm never sure of their correct title in Latin-the blue-habited teaching sisters in Spokane who recently split, with 15 leaving, including the mother superior). Some within the irregular order won't leave, or can't leave, but may forever remain disgruntled about the terms of the acceptance and create an ongoing spirit of discord in the community.

4) As others (Margaret Clare) have mentioned recently, there are a lots of trad-type communities in the fold to chose from, of the types that the 'massers tend to favor--habits, Latin, Gregorian chant, the works.

Edited July 7, 2007 by jkaands

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1316446' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:33 AM'][url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/bclnewsletterjune07.pdf"]http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/bclnewsletterjune07.pdf[/url]
:
O.K, correct me if I'm wrong here: I was under the impression that the Magisterium made the statement that the bishops who consecrated their own bishops within SSPX (including Lefebvre, of course) were self-excommunicated, but that the organization as a whole was not excommunicated (unlike some organizations which have just been entirely excommunicated a a group). Might have had something to do with vincible v. invincible ignorance on the part of those who participated in their Masses (priests and lay faithful, etc.)
?[/quote]

As far as I know that's correct. I'm not sure if it applies to all priests or not but would tend to think it does. It definitely cannot apply to the faithful who attend their masses because as its an order no lay person is actually a part of that order. They may "allegedly" incur sin by attending their masses and sacraments but the excommunication itself applied only to those within the order. Now, many individuals who fully support the order and defend it publicly and disagree with the Vatican on many issues that the SSPX takes objection to, these people probably also have "supposedly" received some sort of automatic excommunication due to their infidelity to Rome. But that would be on a case-by-case basis I would assume.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1316451' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:39 AM']I met a lot of "independent" church-goers on pilgrimage in Chartres. They weren't affiliated with SSPX, but their churches were also not recognized by the local bishop, as you're pointing out.[/quote]

yep and such groups can be some of the best, or some of the worst. We have an amazing (from what I know) priest that isn't attached to any order in particular but holds the sedevacantist philosophy. We know people who go their and who love him. And then we've got Fr. Ward who has some history in the other direction. So its hit or miss with them.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1316596' date='Jul 7 2007, 11:14 AM']This is what has happened to CSMI (I'm never sure of their correct title in Latin-the blue-habited teaching sisters in Spokane who recently split, with 15 leaving, including the mother superior).[/quote]
CMRI - Congregatio Mariae Reginae Immaculatae. And that had been an issue for awhile I think. Our bishop gave them time to reconcile but it wasn't happening.

[jkaands]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1318136' date='Jul 8 2007, 01:44 AM']CMRI - Congregatio Mariae Reginae Immaculatae. And that had been an issue for awhile I think. Our bishop gave them time to reconcile but it wasn't happening.[/quote]

thanks, GChild


My suspicion is that the return-to-the-fold branch of this congregation is going to thrive, like other trad habited teaching types, such as Nashville, Mary Mo Eucharist, etc. The new branch, actually, new GROUP, should list with IRL, CMSRW, etc. and get their own website in which they make everything very Clear...

[goldenchild17]

maybe they will. Doesn't really matter to me either way. I'm sad that they left, but happy that they won't be around to confuse the faithful who attend our churches.

[Carmelitess]

During my search for a Carmelite contemplative community, I came across a website that had Calced Carmelite communities---not St. Teresa of Avila's Discalced Carmelites. Does anybody know if these Carmelites have papal approval?

Also, I heard that SSPX people don't acknowledge any pope who succeded Pope Pius X (so they don't think that Pope Benedict XVI is pope), and that that is why they were excommunicated. Is that true?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Carmelitess' post='1322947' date='Jul 10 2007, 02:05 PM']During my search for a Carmelite contemplative community, I came across a website that had Calced Carmelite communities---not St. Teresa of Avila's Discalced Carmelites. Does anybody know if these Carmelites have papal approval?

Also, I heard that SSPX people don't acknowledge any pope who succeded Pope Pius X (so they don't think that Pope Benedict XVI is pope), and that that is why they were excommunicated. Is that true?[/quote]
No, Sedevacantists such as myself believe that. SSPX is an entirely different deal. They accept all the popes, but don't listen to them regarding many issues. The leaders of that order are excommunicated for having gone along with ordinations of priests without the Vatican's approval. They reject a great deal of the theology that has come from the popes and from Vatican II but they accept them as valid popes.

[photosynthesis]

I saw this site, and I would assume they are not in communion with Rome. Usually traditionalist organizations (religious orders, indult parishes, etc) who are in communion with the Church are VERY VERY open with that fact for fear of coming off as schismatic or sedevacantist. The only American Carmelite order I know of that is in communion with the Church is Clear Creek Monastery in Wyoming, and that's for men. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1324075' date='Jul 11 2007, 12:56 AM']I saw this site, and I would assume they are not in communion with Rome. Usually traditionalist organizations (religious orders, indult parishes, etc) who are in communion with the Church are VERY VERY open with that fact for fear of coming off as schismatic or sedevacantist. The only American Carmelite order I know of that is in communion with the Church is Clear Creek Monastery in Wyoming, and that's for men. Correct me if I'm wrong.[/quote]

Clear Creek is in Oklahoma, and they are Benedictines : But you are right about them being totally in union with Holy Mother Church.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Carmelitess' post='1322947' date='Jul 10 2007, 01:05 PM']During my search for a Carmelite contemplative community, I came across a website that had Calced Carmelite communities---not St. Teresa of Avila's Discalced Carmelites. Does anybody know if these Carmelites have papal approval?[/quote]

Hey, Carmelitess - yeah, the Calced Carmelites are simply another order - definitely with papal approval and everything. : ) They are in the original Carmelite order. Then St. Teresa reformed the order, and the Discalced Carmelite Order became a separate order.

Here are a couple Calced Carmelites (Carmelites of the Ancient Observance) that are great at the IRL site - [url="http://religiouslife.com/vocsearch/search.phtml?view=d&my_id=31&criteria=d"]Coopersburg, PA[/url] & [url="http://religiouslife.com/vocsearch/search.phtml?view=d&my_id=53&criteria=d"]Wahpeton, ND[/url]

[Carmelitess]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1326302' date='Jul 12 2007, 10:14 PM']Hey, Carmelitess - yeah, the Calced Carmelites are simply another order - definitely with papal approval and everything. : ) They are in the original Carmelite order. Then St. Teresa reformed the order, and the Discalced Carmelite Order became a separate order.

Here are a couple Calced Carmelites (Carmelites of the Ancient Observance) that are great at the IRL site - [url="http://religiouslife.com/vocsearch/search.phtml?view=d&my_id=31&criteria=d"]Coopersburg, PA[/url] & [url="http://religiouslife.com/vocsearch/search.phtml?view=d&my_id=53&criteria=d"]Wahpeton, ND[/url][/quote]

Hey, Margaret Clare!

Thanks for the clarification. When I first saw the Calced Carmelites, I thought that they might not be as good as Discalced Carmelites. Now, from what you said, it seems that they're a legitimate separate order. I think that when we learn about Carmel, all we hear about is St. Teresa's reformed Carmel, and we assume that God doesn't/didn't smile down upon the original Carmelites. Well, at least that was my experience.

By the way, if you're interested, on www.ocarm.org seems to be the ocd.pcn.net of the Calced Carmelite order. On there I found a list of all of the Calced Carmelite monasteries and convents in the world.

God bless!

~Margaret