Grace And Marriage And Sex

[Lil Red]

okay, i know this question(s) might be kinda confusing, but just go with me here. so i was reading [i]Familiaris Consortio[/i], and had a thought connected to #58:

[quote name='Familiaris Consortio']The Sacrament of Conversion and Reconciliation

58. An essential and permanent part of the Christian family's sanctifying role consists in accepting the call to conversion that the Gospel addresses to all Christians, who do not always remain faithful to the "newness" of the Baptism that constitutes them "saints." The Christian family too is sometimes unfaithful to the law of baptismal grace and holiness proclaimed anew in the sacrament of marriage.

Repentance and mutual pardon within the bosom of the Christian family, so much a part of daily life, receive their specific sacramental expression in Christian Penance. In the Encyclical Humanae vitae, Paul VI wrote of married couples: "And if sin should still keep its hold over them, let them not be discouraged, but rather have recourse with humble perseverance to the mercy of God, which is abundantly poured forth in the sacrament of Penance."(146)

The celebration of this sacrament acquires special significance for family life. [b][u]While they discover in faith that sin contradicts not only the covenant with God, but also the covenant between husband and wife and the communion of the family,[/b][/u] the married couple and the other members of the family are led to an encounter with God, who is "rich in mercy,"(147) who bestows on them His love which is more powerful than sin,(148) and who reconstructs and brings to perfection the marriage covenant and the family communion.[/quote]

two thoughts on the bolded/underlined part. so it's saying that when one spouse sins, it affects the union of the husband and wife, right? okay, then (go with me here):

if conjugal love is a re-statement of marriage vows, is sex sacramental (within the context of marriage)? Can it be?

and if it is, if you are not in a state of grace, does having sex in that state, lessen the grace that you would normally receive through the marital embrace? so if you were in mortal sin, would you not receive the graces you normally would receive during the marital embrace?

let me know if that made sense.

[StColette]

hmmm

I would say that sexual intercourse is part of the Sacrament of Marriage not necessarily a sacrament in itself. So I guess in a way it is sacramental since it is an expression of the Institution of Marriage

Not speaking from personal experience, because I'm not married...yet! lol I would say that if either partner were in the state of mortal sin then it could put a strain on the graces that flow during the sexual union. I would not say that it keeps the graces from the spouse who is not in mortal sin because they are in a state of grace and acting out part of the sacrament of marriage. However, since sex is tied to a sacrament I would say that the one who is in the state of mortal sin may not be receiving the graces that come with the marital union.

Interesting questions though... I'll keep thinking on this

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1334701' date='Jul 19 2007, 12:46 PM']okay, i know this question(s) might be kinda confusing, but just go with me here. so i was reading [i]Familiaris Consortio[/i], and had a thought connected to #58:
two thoughts on the bolded/underlined part. so it's saying that when one spouse sins, it affects the union of the husband and wife, right? okay, then (go with me here):

if conjugal love is a re-statement of marriage vows, is sex sacramental (within the context of marriage)? Can it be?

and if it is, if you are not in a state of grace, does having sex in that state, lessen the grace that you would normally receive through the marital embrace? so if you were in mortal sin, would you not receive the graces you normally would receive during the marital embrace?

let me know if that made sense.[/quote]

Made perfect sense, and a very interesting question. And, I think I am going to have to go with St. Colette on this one, since, it is as anything, you cannot expect to receive the graces of a sacrament if you are not properly pre-disposed for that sacrament. For example, you cannot expect to be given the graces of the sacrament of the Eucharist if you are in the state of mortal sin and not prepared to do so. I would imagine that this would be true for any of the sacraments as well.

I cannot say that too is a definitive answer, because I had never really thought about it in this context before.

Excellent question though, and I am interested to see where this goes.

[StColette]

Micah wanted be to add this:

The spouse who is in the state of mortal sin could possibly receive actual grace if open to it in this particular situation. The spouse however would not receive Sanctifying grace.


Now me adding:

If the spouse were open to the actual graces this could help him/her to realize their state of grace and seek forgiveness. I could especially see this in helping heal sexually related sins. I would say that if a person had happened to sin sexually against their spouse (not specifically adultery) then the love that is share in the sexual union could help the sinful spouse to repent, because they have been shown the proper way to act toward their spouse in this manner

[Carson Weber]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1334701' date='Jul 19 2007, 11:46 AM']if conjugal love is a re-statement of marriage vows, is sex sacramental (within the context of marriage)? Can it be?

and if it is, if you are not in a state of grace, does having sex in that state, lessen the grace that you would normally receive through the marital embrace? so if you were in mortal sin, would you not receive the graces you normally would receive during the marital embrace?

let me know if that made sense.[/quote]

The term [i]sacrament[/i] comes from the Latin [i]sacramentum[/i], which means [i]oath[/i]. You enter into and renew a covenant by swearing an [i]oath[/i]. Dr. Scott Hahn wrote extensively about this in his very well-written book titled [u]Swear to God[/u].

The reason why the conjugal act is sacramental is that it is the oath-action by which you renew your marital covenant. Each time you engage in that act, you are renewing your wedding vows by physically enacting what you said in those vows. It's a consummation of those vows.

When in a state of mortal sin, you cannot grow in sanctifying grace (which is what actually makes us in the image of the eternal Son of God) because you aren't in a state of grace. Think of sanctifying grace as a plant. It grows and forms you. If it's dead, it's dead. No amount of water or sun will revive it. It needs a resurrection, and that happens in Confession.

[StColette]

[quote name='Carson Weber' post='1335075' date='Jul 19 2007, 05:01 PM']The term [i]sacrament[/i] comes from the Latin [i]sacramentum[/i], which means [i]oath[/i]. You enter into and renew a covenant by swearing an [i]oath[/i]. Dr. Scott Hahn wrote extensively about this in his very well-written book titled [u]Swear to God[/u].

The reason why the conjugal act is sacramental is that it is the oath-action by which you renew your marital covenant. Each time you engage in that act, you are renewing your wedding vows by physically enacting what you said in those vows. It's a consummation of those vows.

When in a state of mortal sin, you cannot grow in sanctifying grace (which is what actually makes us in the image of the eternal Son of God) because you aren't in a state of grace. Think of sanctifying grace as a plant. It grows and forms you. If it's dead, it's dead. No amount of water or sun will revive it. It needs a resurrection, and that happens in Confession.[/quote]

Little side track, Carson did you get Raphael's email through your blog? I'm currently living in your old house in Steubie and have some of your mail lol

Side track finished! Thank you!

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
7/19 - Fifteenth Thursday

I honestly have nothing to add, but I would like to make a clarification on Carson's post (btw, is that a picture of Brad from [i]Home Improvement[/i] in your avatar?).

I hesitate to say that sex is sacramental in a strict sense. It's a technical theological term and, in my opinion (which isn't worth much), shouldn't really be used except in reference to the sacraments. It would be sacramental, though, in that the entire created order is sacramental - it shows forth the power and love of God for humankind.

I would affirm that sexual intercourse is [i]a sacramental[/i], but not [i]sacramental[/i] in the strict sense. Does this obscure things enough for you?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Pio Nono' post='1335099' date='Jul 19 2007, 04:31 PM']Does this obscure things enough for you?[/quote]
yes

[Birgitta Noel]

[quote name='Pio Nono' post='1335099' date='Jul 19 2007, 06:31 PM'](btw, is that a picture of Brad from [i]Home Improvement[/i] in your avatar?).[/quote]

Nope, that's Carson!

[Birgitta Noel]

I see where you're going LR and I've always felt this way as well. There's nothing like having just gone to confession and then, ahem, renewing your marriage vows knowing you're in a state of grace.

I agree with St. Collette that where sexual sin of various types are involved there is a certain spiritual barrier between the spouses when one spouse is in mortal sin. After absolution that barrier is removed and the two are truly one flesh. Both are in a state of grace, they are one in their relationship and in their orientation towards Christ. I liken it to reception of the Eucharist at mass. If one spouse is not able to receive Eucharist because they are in a state of mortal sin there may be a sense of loneliness of the other at mass. Both spouses are physically present, but they are not united in the Eucharist as they would be otherwise.

Ok, I'm supposed to be writing an article, more on this later.

[kateri05]

[quote name='Pio Nono' post='1335099' date='Jul 19 2007, 04:31 PM']JMJ
7/19 - Fifteenth Thursday

I would affirm that sexual intercourse is [i]a sacramental[/i], but not [i]sacramental[/i] in the strict sense. Does this obscure things enough for you?[/quote]

thats what i thought she meant in the first place, that its A sacramental.

although, techinically, since its the matter for the sacrament of matrimony, wouldn't conjugal union be "sacramental" in the sense that it is part of the sacrament of marriage?


great stuff red

[Lil Red]

[quote name='The Little Way' post='1335292' date='Jul 19 2007, 08:29 PM']I see where you're going LR and I've always felt this way as well. There's nothing like having just gone to confession and then, ahem, renewing your marriage vows knowing you're in a state of grace.

I agree with St. Collette that where sexual sin of various types are involved there is a certain spiritual barrier between the spouses when one spouse is in mortal sin. After absolution that barrier is removed and the two are truly one flesh. Both are in a state of grace, they are one in their relationship and in their orientation towards Christ. I liken it to reception of the Eucharist at mass. If one spouse is not able to receive Eucharist because they are in a state of mortal sin there may be a sense of loneliness of the other at mass. Both spouses are physically present, but they are not united in the Eucharist as they would be otherwise.

Ok, I'm supposed to be writing an article, more on this later.[/quote]
okay, how does this relate to when one spouse is Catholic and the other isn't?

[Birgitta Noel]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1335659' date='Jul 20 2007, 11:10 AM']okay, how does this relate to when one spouse is Catholic and the other isn't?[/quote]

Hmmm, that's a good question. I'm not sure. I do think it's different in one way though. I hope this won't come off as offensive so bear with me as I try to talk it through.

It would seem that the difference is this.

In a marriage where one spouse is not Catholic there is a built in separation in regards to the Eucharist so in such a marriage that is somewhat the "norm" so to speak. Whereas in a marriage of two Catholics the "norm" is unity in the Eucharistic sense and so the position of one spouse being in mortal sin is a deviation from that norm.

Of course how that applies to the sacramentality of sex I'm not sure. There is the natural marital bond in any true marriage. Perhaps it makes sense to say that there is an additional sacramental bond in a marriage where both parties are Catholic? Or is it baptismal status that would make the bond sacramental? So if both parties are Christian the sexual union is sacramental in that sense.

Does that make any sense? Mind you, I'm no theologian so I'm just thinking this through with my little pea brain!

Edited July 20, 2007 by The Little Way

[XIX]

[quote name='Pio Nono' post='1335099' date='Jul 19 2007, 05:31 PM']JMJ
7/19 - Fifteenth Thursday

I honestly have nothing to add, but I would like to make a clarification on Carson's post (btw, is that a picture of Brad from [i]Home Improvement[/i] in your avatar?).

I hesitate to say that sex is sacramental in a strict sense. It's a technical theological term and, in my opinion (which isn't worth much), shouldn't really be used except in reference to the sacraments. It would be sacramental, though, in that the entire created order is sacramental - it shows forth the power and love of God for humankind.

I would affirm that sexual intercourse is [i]a sacramental[/i], but not [i]sacramental[/i] in the strict sense. Does this obscure things enough for you?[/quote]
In high school theology, we would call that Sacramental vs. sacramental.

Sacrament refers to one of the seven
sacrament refers to any other outward expression of God's love
and the "ultimate" SACRAMENT is Jesus dying on the cross.


That's what they taught me.

[Ash Wednesday]

Wow, this is one of the most fascinating topics I've ever read on phatmass. And reading about the Church's approach to sex takes the term "making love" to a whole new level.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
7/21 - St. Praxides
[quote name='kateri05' post='1335499' date='Jul 20 2007, 01:17 AM']although, techinically, since its the matter for the sacrament of matrimony, wouldn't conjugal union be "sacramental" in the sense that it is part of the sacrament of marriage?[/quote]
You know, I keep hearing this...and to be blunt, I don't know who popularized this idea. I've only heard this proposal from Christopher West and his crowd, but never from a professional sacramental theologian. From the [i]Decree on Union with the Armenians[/i] at the Council of Florence...
[quote]The efficient cause of matrimony is usually mutual consent expressed in words about the present.[/quote]
The consent of the spouses to be married [i]as expressed in words [/i]is both the matter and the form of the sacrament. And "usually" shouldn't throw us off, as there are ways for those who can't speak to express consent that would have the same force as spoken words (ie., signing a document, nodding in agreements, etc.).

Just making sure we're all clear on this.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
7/21 - St. Praxides

It just occurred to me to say this...

Every time a priest says Mass, it strengthens his vocation and, in some sense, re-affirms his promises at ordination. Maybe this is the way in which we can say that sexual intercourse renews the vows of the spouses?

I have no argument or justification for the statement just made, but I'll think of one.

[kateri05]

hmmm. i guess i was taught that the form is the vows, and those vows (and the consent implied) is thus expressed in the matter of conjugal union. you're saying the [i]vows[/i] are actually the matter [i]and[/i] the form. but that, intercourse is a physical renewal of those vows.


i'll take it! thanks father

[Didacus]

Been married 7 years.

Very interesting thread. Everyday I'm reminded that I have much to learn, and often that reminder comes from those much younger than myself.

Now for my 2 cents (and canadien cents are worth essentially as much as US cents these days! - *smirk*);


The act of sexual intercourse with your spouse depends greatly upon the state of being of each person. Sex within a couple can be a stepping stone bringing you closer to each other and God, but it can also be sacriligeous. The intent and disposition of each person entering in this act is a major determinant in which path this may take (for example a married couple using contraception automatically deny one of the deepest facets of marital relations).

That being said, your initial statement LilRed makes perfect sense. Sin is an attrition of ones ability to fully give one's self to the other in the purpose of God's plan. But I do admit this is simply put.



May every day, the love I hold for my wife be a reminder to me of the love of God Himself.
Same with my children who form the family we founded.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
7/22 - Sixteenth Sunday
[quote name='kateri05' post='1336705' date='Jul 21 2007, 05:54 PM']i'll take it! thanks father [/quote]
Not quite yet a priest - still got about two more years. Pray me through seminary!

I hope I didn't come off too strong. Reading back, it looks like I was pretty aggressive in my post. Sorry if I sounded like a jerk! :