Is Origen A Church Father?

[brendan1104]

Vote.

Edited July 22, 2007 by brendan1104

[Resurrexi]

I thought he was... I didn't know it was disputed.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1337019' date='Jul 22 2007, 12:01 AM']I thought he was... I didn't know it was disputed.[/quote]


same....
the only one i know about that's not really is tertullian cause he denied the faith later in his life, didnt he?

[hoosieranna]

I thought Origen got in trouble for something.

[N/A Gone]

My understanding is that Origen's followers took some views of Origen and went too far (reincarnation and Universalism are two) also the issue of casteration is tough to swallow.

Fact of the matter is Origen laid the foundation for alot of our theology, He is also one of the best sources of patristic sacramentalism in his writings.

What are your qualifications for Church fathers? I would include Origen in mine. I have read much of his writings and exegesis. He had good intentions, just working within a less defined faith.

Tertulian is tough. He did go against some church teachings later in life, but his overall life work is very valuable to the church. You could make an argument for Augustine going against church teaching with his later works (retractions) but many believe he was suffering from something later in life.

I would recommend reading any of these guys. Great people in our faith, the influence of Origen is incredible.

[hoosieranna]

I wasn't trying to qualify Church Fathers. I freely admit my ignorance on the matter. I just vaguely remembered reading something about him and wanted it clarified. Thank you for doing so. BTW, I'm working on Augustine even now.

[Katholikos]

Origen and Tertullian are both included among the Church Fathers and are valued for their writings that are a faithful witness to the teaching of Christ and His Church, recognizing that both of them later went astray.

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Nadezhda' post='1337249' date='Jul 22 2007, 01:57 AM']BTW, I'm working on Augustine even now.[/quote]

Sweet...my speciality, (at least I like to think so) what are you reading of his?


[quote name='Katholikos' post='1337503' date='Jul 22 2007, 12:53 PM']Origen and Tertullian are both included among the Church Fathers and are valued for their writings that are a faithful witness to the teaching of Christ and His Church, recognizing that both of them later went astray.[/quote]

I know Tertullian did, but did Origen really go astray? I think it is more of a matter of his people doing it. Also, some of his teachers were later clarified and we held onto the good, and got rid of the rest.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

It's good to remember that Church Fathers are not infallible individually, but collectively where they agree. We need not disregard early theologians for an errant idea here and there.

Origen is a Church Father in my book.

Edited July 23, 2007 by thedude

[hoosieranna]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1337610' date='Jul 22 2007, 03:23 PM']Sweet...my speciality, (at least I like to think so) what are you reading of his?[/quote]

Warning, off topic: Sorry for the delay. I had to work. I'm struggling through [i]Confessions[/i] right now. I'm not of a philosophical bent, so sometimes it seems I'm bashing my head against the wall. I'm also reading a biography of Augustine by a Georgetown professor, James J. O'Donnell. It's witty and well written. Dr. O'Donnell wrote a three-volume commentary on [i]Confessions[/i], and he really knows his stuff.

I agree with thedude about human error.

Edited July 23, 2007 by Nadezhda

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1337610' date='Jul 22 2007, 03:23 PM']Sweet...my speciality, (at least I like to think so) what are you reading of his?
I know Tertullian did, but did Origen really go astray? I think it is more of a matter of his people doing it. Also, some of his teachers were later clarified and we held onto the good, and got rid of the rest.[/quote]
A number of Origen's positions were condemned as heretical. The only thing I would say in his defense is that he submitted to the authority of the Church and if these doctrines had been declared heretical by the Church before he cooked them up he would likely have rejected them.

[Era Might]

The Pope spoke about Origen earlier this year in one of his General Audiences:

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20070425_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict...0070425_en.html[/url]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1338212' date='Jul 22 2007, 10:19 PM']The Pope spoke about Origen earlier this year in one of his General Audiences:

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20070425_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict...0070425_en.html[/url][/quote]
That's a phat talk, thanks Era.

For those who may not know it should be stressed that there are heretical doctrines in Origen's theology so beware. When studying Origen these teachings which the Church later condemned should be kept in mind lest one fall into the heresy called "Origenism."

Some examples:

1. Origen speculated that even the demons would eventually be reconciled and brought to heaven.
2. Origen speculated that creation is co-eternal with God in the sense that while this universe had a beginning in the past it is just one in an infinite series of worlds that God created and continues to create.
3. The pre-existence of souls.
4. In some places Origen puts forth a Trinitarian subordinationism.

Origen wrote a lot and was a very brilliant and bold thinker. It is no surprise that some of the ideas he put forth in different places would be off the mark.

He was one of the first Christians to attempt a full blown theological system so he was treading a lot of ground without a whole lot of explicitly defined doctrine so he should not be criticized too harshly.
As I said before, he submitted to the authority of the Church and was not a formal heretical or in any way obstinate. He was just a bold thinker trying to understand the mysteries of God to the best of his ability.

[reyb]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1338256' date='Jul 22 2007, 11:31 PM']That's a phat talk, thanks Era.

For those who may not know it should be stressed that there are heretical doctrines in Origen's theology so beware. When studying Origen these teachings which the Church later condemned should be kept in mind lest one fall into the heresy called "Origenism."

Some examples:

1. Origen speculated that even the demons would eventually be reconciled and brought to heaven.
2. Origen speculated that creation is co-eternal with God in the sense that while this universe had a beginning in the past it is just one in an infinite series of worlds that God created and continues to create.
3. The pre-existence of souls.
4. In some places Origen puts forth a Trinitarian subordinationism.

Origen wrote a lot and was a very brilliant and bold thinker. It is no surprise that some of the ideas he put forth in different places would be off the mark.

He was one of the first Christians to attempt a full blown theological system so he was treading a lot of ground without a whole lot of explicitly defined doctrine so he should not be criticized too harshly.
As I said before, he submitted to the authority of the Church and was not a formal heretical or in any way obstinate. He was just a bold thinker trying to understand the mysteries of God to the best of his ability.[/quote]

[indent]....at the end he becomes heretic.
After what he has done for the Roman Catholic Church - even up to now his works are considered valid by the Church - but, at the end he lost his sense of being a true disiciple of Jesus. I do not get it. where is the power of the Holy Spirit, if he is really guided by the Spirit of God during the time he is doing his part for the church?
Nevertheless, I wish he found peace in Christ.
[/indent]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='reyb' post='1338980' date='Jul 23 2007, 07:48 PM'][indent]....at the end he becomes heretic.
After what he has done for the Roman Catholic Church - even up to now his works are considered valid by the Church - but, at the end he lost his sense of being a true disiciple of Jesus. I do not get it. where is the power of the Holy Spirit, if he is really guided by the Spirit of God during the time he is doing his part for the church?
Nevertheless, I wish he found peace in Christ.
[/indent][/quote]
His works are considered valuable, but the fact that there are heretical speculations is certainly recognized. Some of his most valuable works are his commentaries on Scripture. It is mostly when he tries to reconcile Christianity with pagan philosophy (principally Neo-Platonism) that he gets weird.

[Aloysius]

in the end, he held things which were materially heretical... but he was not necessarily culpable for forming them because he did not form them with a direct intention of going against true Christian doctrine, and thus not a formal heretic; just held beleifs that were materially heretical.

it's likely that judged against an absolute, there's not one human being alive who does not have some degree of material heresy that will be corrected in the end. I believe after Aquinas had a vision, he stopped all his writings saying that compared to what God actually is, all of his theology's failure to grasp it all seemed like heresy.

hopefully, and probably, in the final final end (which we do not know if it has happened yet, he could theoretically still be being purified in purgatory) Origen will believe all true things and no false things about God upon seeing Him face to face.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1339012' date='Jul 23 2007, 08:06 PM']in the end, he held things which were materially heretical... but he was not necessarily culpable for forming them because he did not form them with a direct intention of going against true Christian doctrine, and thus not a formal heretic; just held beleifs that were materially heretical.

it's likely that judged against an absolute, there's not one human being alive who does not have some degree of material heresy that will be corrected in the end. I believe after Aquinas had a vision, he stopped all his writings saying that compared to what God actually is, all of his theology's failure to grasp it all seemed like heresy.

hopefully, and probably, in the final final end (which we do not know if it has happened yet, he could theoretically still be being purified in purgatory) Origen will believe all true things and no false things about God upon seeing Him face to face.[/quote]
And in many cases the way in which he presents the more unusual theories is in a "what if" or "maybe" tone.

[reyb]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1338992' date='Jul 23 2007, 08:53 PM']His works are considered valuable, but the fact that there are heretical speculations is certainly recognized. Some of his most valuable works are his commentaries on Scripture. It is mostly when he tries to reconcile Christianity with pagan philosophy (principally Neo-Platonism) that he gets weird.[/quote]
[quote name='Aloysius' post='1339012' date='Jul 23 2007, 09:06 PM']in the end, he held things which were materially heretical... but he was not necessarily culpable for forming them because he did not form them with a direct intention of going against true Christian doctrine, and thus not a formal heretic; just held beleifs that were materially heretical.

it's likely that judged against an absolute, there's not one human being alive who does not have some degree of material heresy that will be corrected in the end. I believe after Aquinas had a vision, he stopped all his writings saying that compared to what God actually is, all of his theology's failure to grasp it all seemed like heresy.

hopefully, and probably, in the final final end (which we do not know if it has happened yet, he could theoretically still be being purified in purgatory) Origen will believe all true things and no false things about God upon seeing Him face to face.[/quote]
[quote name='reyb' post='1338980' date='Jul 23 2007, 08:48 PM'][indent Where is the power of the Holy Spirit, if he is really guided by the Spirit of God during the time he is doing his part for the church?
[/indent][/quote]

[indent]Is it possible for a man guided by the Holy Spirit to preach erroneous doctrine?
And why he will destroy what he builds if the Roman Catholic Church is indeed the True Church of Christ?[/indent]

[Aloysius]

yes, all men are imperfect and may fail to understand the workings of the Holy Spirit... they may misintepret or teach false things. it is in our full communion that there is final infallibility; the magisterium; the full consent of all the Church Fathers, et cetera; these are the things which guard against human corruption of the message of the Holy Spirit.

For truly there are many Christians in the world who have real relationships with the Holy Spirit, but differing opinions about points of doctrine. This is due to human impefection which distorts the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but we can be sure of the boundaries which keep us very close to full truth by relying upon the guidance of the Holy Spirit to our whole community through the Magisterium of the Church.

[reyb]

[color="#FF0000"][indent]It is written in Heb 6:4-6

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit , 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. [/indent]NIV[/color]

[indent]Why then it seems, it is impossible?[/indent]