Though I Admire The Evangelicals' Style..still...

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1349438' date='Aug 4 2007, 10:16 AM']The Catholic Church teachs another gospel.

Even Mormons claim to cast out devils and perform charity works in the name of Jesus Christ.

Doesnt mean your churches are Christian.

My last church was an indpt Baptist one, however I know many good Pente Christians, non-denoms, home churchers, Free Methodists ones, the denominational brand only goes so far, it is about unity in Jesus Christ.

Catholics dont even *cast out demons* the same way that Christians do but thats a subject for another thread.[/quote]
The Catholic Church teaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Four Evangelists: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

What gospel do [i]you[/i] teach, Budge?

Highly ironic that Budge criticizes Catholics for saying there is One True Church, yet is quick to declare that the Catholic Church is not Christian!

But I guess we're supposed to accept that Catholics are not Christian because, well, Budge says we're not.

[kateri05]

[quote]Catholics dont even *cast out demons* the same way that Christians do but thats a subject for another thread.[/quote]

why because they use Latin, of which the devil is afraid? this comment troubles me, as the Church is the one who INVENTED exorcisms. we've been casting out demons since St. Peter!

[genxcathedra]

Priests can cast out devils. Exorcists have the tools; they have the talent.
There is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church. That is too general to include ignorance, etc. regarding other Christians, but babtism is necessary. Ignorant non-Christians and the unborn or those who die too young for one to babtize him/her Christian aren't going to suffer the pains of Hell, but it is part of Hell. Those in Purgatory are said to suffer the pains of Hell, but have the hope of heaven.

Protestants say they believe only in the Bible, yet so many allow divorce and remarriage--something directly against the Bible. God says "I hate divorce". Any church that formally allows it proves itself not a true church inspired by God. That's most all of them, I think. Protestant "Reformers" separated Faith to churchtime and economics to anything else, I read. Some Evangelicals are wanting that to be not so. I respect those who are of a church that says they are Bible believing and believe the Bible where it explicitly states something. It's the opposite case that makes it hard for non-Catholic Christians to be saved. They don't even acknowledge the Bible as the sole source though they say it is their sole source; they acknowledge themselves. So many have chosen mammon because their churches are manmade and not divinely inspired or divinely maintained and thus, may follow their church to Hell knowing fully what the Bible truly says or being responsible for knowing. I don't know enough about the Orthodox Christians.

If Peter, the other Apostles and Paul, through Jesus Christ, could not get the first Church right, and if the keys were given to Peter who loosed his authority to his successor and so forth, how could any other person do better, much less have a church inspired by Christ? Even Evangelicals can't keep doctrinal modernism from becoming formally allowed in their churches somewhere. Despite cosmetic problems these decades, the Catholic Church still stays with its formal teachings. With all these post Vatican 2 liberals running about making cosmetic abherrations part of Catholic culture in recent decades, don't you think they could have had women priests and such by now if the Church were not the only divinely inspired, instituted and maintained Church? God can't talk through any other Church all He wants to say officially. Don't you think He would use the one He created against which the gates of Hell cannot prevail? If human weakness could interfere, could we ever know if God said this or that in the Bible and Tradition or if this or that were an opinion?

I denied the Church and Mary once. These are the reasons I came back before formally choosing another church, thank God (literally)

[quote name='Budge' post='1349438' date='Aug 4 2007, 11:16 AM']The Catholic Church teachs another gospel.

Even Mormons claim to cast out devils and perform charity works in the name of Jesus Christ.

Doesnt mean your churches are Christian.

My last church was an indpt Baptist one, however I know many good Pente Christians, non-denoms, home churchers, Free Methodists ones, the denominational brand only goes so far, it is about unity in Jesus Christ.

Catholics dont even *cast out demons* the same way that Christians do but thats a subject for another thread.[/quote]

[123]

Budge,


Forgive me if this seems a bit harsh, but, who gave you or any bloody Protestant, Fundamentalist, Independant Baptist, Penetcostal whatever to determine who is Christian or not?

~Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

~1 Corinthians 1:11-15~

11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

[b]13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?[/b]

14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Catholics have never accosted Protestants, Independants, or whatever else seem to yearn for divsion againsts his Brothers and Sisters in Christ, in whom we are called to avoid mind you, of not ever being Christians. Amazingly, in the above verse St. Paul was glad that he did not baptize people who seemed to divide God, or certain teachings so they may cause divisions in Christ. Thus, maybe you should ask yourself: Did the Catholic Church really divide up Christ in 1517? Or did the Protestant Reformation?

[quote]My last church was an indpt Baptist one, however I know many good Pente Christians, non-denoms, home churchers, Free Methodists ones, the denominational brand only goes so far, it is about unity in Jesus Christ.[/quote]

So you unify yourselves in Christ by seperating yourselves under sectarian denominations?

I grew up thoroughly Protestant, my parents treked from Baptist, to Orthodox Presbyterian, to a home church (that really never did Church stuff.) then back to the Presbyterian Church, which slandared both the home church and the Baptist church, mocking both of them (I think they called the home church a "sham" church.) and now they are Reformed Episcopal turned Anglican Catholics. None of those protestant denominations lovingly worked off each other. They title other denominations as such; "On the path to pagan Rome!" They horridly use the Roman Catholic Church, as ammunition, to arrogantly slander their common faiths. Then turn 180 degrees and claim the Catholic Church to be Satanic, wrong, full of deceit and ancient pagan rituals, and a main target for the rise of the Anti-Christ! How much more false accusations can we take!

~Professing themselves to be wise, they became geniuses,
Romans 1:22

~Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 7:1 [Christ's words]


I am tired of the renouned acceptance of hopping from one denominations to another in protestantism even though there is some disapointment, some pat on the backs, and some "God bless you on your journey." But, the moment they find out that their journey leads said person to the Catholic Church they instantly become apostate! The Church is immediately put in bad light, and so are her practices, the person may even be put out, or not even called a Christian anymore! These things are most certainly the sin of arrogance.

Edited August 10, 2007 by GloriaIesusChristi

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1340546' date='Jul 25 2007, 02:54 PM']Not to generalize, nor judge by outward appearances but, I found it perculiarly interesting that Protestants tend to show more of an outward zeal than the average Catholic. I wonder why that is? My belief is that Protestants (generalization here) tend celebrate in one fashion, while Catholics do so in another (more in a quiet, reverant way).

Of course this doesn't apply to every denomination, parish community, or church, but so far it's been my impression from what I've witnessed. Catholics tend to be more quiet, but once you get a conversation going they open up and get going; while Protestants just get going right away.[/quote]You should read Peter Kreeft on this particular question. (You may note, Peter was raised as a Protestant. His father and grandfatther were Presbyterian(?) preachers.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1347122' date='Aug 2 2007, 11:26 AM']This goes totally agianst what scripture says...

Mar 9:38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[b]
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.[/b]

All this one true church stuff is nonsense per the above.

What matters is if a person is born again in Jesus Christ and a child of God....[/quote]You make me laugh, Budge. Obviously you don't understand what you wrote.
If those people do not follow Jesus and his Disciples, then explain to me how they are they born again in Jesus Christ?

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='genxcathedra' post='1354815' date='Aug 10 2007, 01:09 AM']Priests can cast out devils. Exorcists have the tools; they have the talent.
There is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church. That is too general to include ignorance, etc. regarding other Christians, but babtism is necessary. Ignorant non-Christians and the unborn or those who die too young for one to babtize him/her Christian aren't going to suffer the pains of Hell, but it is part of Hell. Those in Purgatory are said to suffer the pains of Hell, but have the hope of heaven.

Protestants say they believe only in the Bible, yet so many allow divorce and remarriage--something directly against the Bible. God says "I hate divorce". Any church that formally allows it proves itself not a true church inspired by God. That's most all of them, I think. Protestant "Reformers" separated Faith to churchtime and economics to anything else, I read. Some Evangelicals are wanting that to be not so. I respect those who are of a church that says they are Bible believing and believe the Bible where it explicitly states something. It's the opposite case that makes it hard for non-Catholic Christians to be saved. They don't even acknowledge the Bible as the sole source though they say it is their sole source; they acknowledge themselves. So many have chosen mammon because their churches are manmade and not divinely inspired or divinely maintained and thus, may follow their church to Hell knowing fully what the Bible truly says or being responsible for knowing. I don't know enough about the Orthodox Christians.

If Peter, the other Apostles and Paul, through Jesus Christ, could not get the first Church right, and if the keys were given to Peter who loosed his authority to his successor and so forth, how could any other person do better, much less have a church inspired by Christ? Even Evangelicals can't keep doctrinal modernism from becoming formally allowed in their churches somewhere. Despite cosmetic problems these decades, the Catholic Church still stays with its formal teachings. With all these post Vatican 2 liberals running about making cosmetic abherrations part of Catholic culture in recent decades, don't you think they could have had women priests and such by now if the Church were not the only divinely inspired, instituted and maintained Church? God can't talk through any other Church all He wants to say officially. Don't you think He would use the one He created against which the gates of Hell cannot prevail? If human weakness could interfere, could we ever know if God said this or that in the Bible and Tradition or if this or that were an opinion?

I denied the Church and Mary once. These are the reasons I came back before formally choosing another church, thank God (literally)[/quote]


[quote name='GloriaIesusChristi' post='1354974' date='Aug 10 2007, 03:36 AM']Budge,
Forgive me if this seems a bit harsh, but, who gave you or any bloody Protestant, Fundamentalist, Independant Baptist, Penetcostal whatever to determine who is Christian or not?

~Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

~1 Corinthians 1:11-15~

11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

[b]13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?[/b]

14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Catholics have never accosted Protestants, Independants, or whatever else seem to yearn for divsion againsts his Brothers and Sisters in Christ, in whom we are called to avoid mind you, of not ever being Christians. Amazingly, in the above verse St. Paul was glad that he did not baptize people who seemed to divide God, or certain teachings so they may cause divisions in Christ. Thus, maybe you should ask yourself: Did the Catholic Church really divide up Christ in 1517? Or did the Protestant Reformation?
So you unify yourselves in Christ by seperating yourselves under sectarian denominations?

I grew up thoroughly Protestant, my parents treked from Baptist, to Orthodox Presbyterian, to a home church (that really never did Church stuff.) then back to the Presbyterian Church, which slandared both the home church and the Baptist church, mocking both of them (I think they called the home church a "sham" church.) and now they are Reformed Episcopal turned Anglican Catholics. None of those protestant denominations lovingly worked off each other. They title other denominations as such; "On the path to pagan Rome!" They horridly use the Roman Catholic Church, as ammunition, to arrogantly slander their common faiths. Then turn 180 degrees and claim the Catholic Church to be Satanic, wrong, full of deceit and ancient pagan rituals, and a main target for the rise of the Anti-Christ! How much more false accusations can we take!

~Professing themselves to be wise, they became geniuses,
Romans 1:22

~Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 7:1 [Christ's words]
I am tired of the renouned acceptance of hopping from one denominations to another in protestantism even though there is some disapointment, some pat on the backs, and some "God bless you on your journey." But, the moment they find out that their journey leads said person to the Catholic Church they instantly become apostate! The Church is immediately put in bad light, and so are her practices, the person may even be put out, or not even called a Christian anymore! These things are most certainly the sin of arrogance.[/quote]

Preach it, you two! That was an amazing read for me. I think our separated brethren need to hear your testimonies.

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1355000' date='Aug 10 2007, 06:29 AM']You should read Peter Kreeft on this particular question. (You may note, Peter was raised as a Protestant. His father and grandfatther were Presbyterian(?) preachers.[/quote]

Yeah I think he mentions that on one of his audio lectures which you can get for FREE on [url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio.htm"]his website.[/url]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1355001' date='Aug 10 2007, 06:34 AM']You make me laugh, Budge. Obviously you don't understand what you wrote.
If those people do not follow Jesus and his Disciples, then explain to me how they are they born again in Jesus Christ?[/quote]
On fire there...

[genxcathedra]

I'm sure the Catechism of the Catholic Church covers the Biblical passages on divorce.
It is obvious about an eternal happiness for ignorant non-Christians who were sad for what they knew was evil and anyone born to parents of any religion (or faith tradition within) who was not babtized Christian. I don't remember if it is De Fide (inerrant teaching and must be believed). The part of hell that was happy for those good Jews before Jesus came was emptied for good after Christ's death.

There is a part in the Bible where Jesus says to those who would say "Lord, Lord (with faith)" but not be saved because they lived rotten lives and would not repent. They would say "We ate with you, etc." but the Lord would send them to Hell. There goes salvation by Faith Alone.

I heard on EWTN about a book called "Why are Catholic Bibles Bigger? (or close to that)" that covers the history of the Deuterocanonical books and probably the faith (alone).




[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1355812' date='Aug 10 2007, 09:31 PM']Preach it, you two! That was an amazing read for me. I think our separated brethren need to hear your testimonies.
Yeah I think he mentions that on one of his audio lectures which you can get for FREE on [url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio.htm"]his website.[/url]
On fire there...
[/quote]

[Budge]

[quote]Budge,


Forgive me if this seems a bit harsh, but, who gave you or any bloody Protestant, Fundamentalist, Independant Baptist, Penetcostal whatever to determine who is Christian or not?[/quote]

God determines that, not me or any of the groups above.

Are you born again? That is what matters. There are Christians in even other churches. however any church that teaches another gospel, they have far less chance of being born again.

There is UNITY in jesus Christ, unity in Pope is FALSE.

You give me the usual Catholic line that division is a BAD THING...

Well what of this?

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
[quote]So you unify yourselves in Christ by seperating yourselves under sectarian denominations?[/quote]

The denomination doesnt determine things.

Catholics have a hard time understanding this, they think its all about the brand name.

For instance I was in an indp Baptist church, but I know there are christian churches doing Gods work {READ MARK 9} As I search for a new church home, it may not even be indpt Baptist.

I am brothers and sisters with every truly born again Christian this is not determined by denominational distinctives.

[quote]Not to generalize, nor judge by outward appearances but, I found it perculiarly interesting that Protestants tend to show more of an outward zeal than the average Catholic. I wonder why that is? My belief is that Protestants (generalization here) tend celebrate in one fashion, while Catholics do so in another (more in a quiet, reverant way).[/quote]

That has to do with the HOly Spirit, and the lack of zeal isnt just present in the Catholic Church but other apostate churches--like high church Protestantism.

Of course this doesn't apply to every denomination, parish community, or church, but so far it's been my impression from what I've witnessed. Catholics tend to be more quiet, but once you get a conversation going they open up and get going; while Protestants just get going right away.
You should read Peter Kreeft on this particular question. (You may note, Peter was raised as a Protestant. His father and grandfatther were Presbyterian(?) preachers.


[quote]Mar 9:38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

All this one true church stuff is nonsense per the above.

What matters is if a person is born again in Jesus Christ and a child of God....
You make me laugh, Budge. Obviously you don't understand what you wrote.
If those people do not follow Jesus and his Disciples, then explain to me how they are they born again in Jesus Christ?[/quote]

Wow, they ARE FOLLOWING HIM. Those people casting out devils in Jesus name are FOLLOWING HIM.

You see the whole apostolic succession thing has got you confused.

You know when I left the Catholic church it took me some time to realize the unity was to be in Christ, not the brand name label over the door. As I said I have met Methodist Christians, Pentes, non-denominationals, home churches and more. This is what my indpt Baptist church taught that Christians were present elsewhere. There was none of this one true church nonsense, there is one true church but it is every born agian saved believer in Jesus Christ. His kingdom is not of THIS WORLD.


[quote]Despite cosmetic problems these decades, the Catholic Church still stays with its formal teachings.[/quote]

Hilarious, so even thought the Catholic Church is in the same pit of modernism with the liberal evangelicals...Rick Warren loves the UN and interfaithism too like your Pope, for you its just "cosmetic problems"

Edited August 13, 2007 by Budge

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Budge' post='1357991' date='Aug 13 2007, 08:22 AM']God determines that, not me or any of the groups above.

Are you born again? That is what matters. There are Christians in even other churches. however any church that teaches another gospel, they have far less chance of being born again.

There is UNITY in jesus Christ, unity in Pope is FALSE.

You give me the usual Catholic line that division is a BAD THING...

Well what of this?

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
The denomination doesnt determine things.
...[/quote]
Yet Christ prays in the garden of Gethsemene that his people will be one. Basically, you're not interpreting that verse properly. It is concerning relationships with others. I know what follows from that verse. He goes on to say that brother will be pitted against brother, daughter and mother, and the sort. He was talking about families being split because some chose Jesus and others don't. Sorta like my situation. But anywho, Catholics aren't about "brands". There is one Church. Period. Jesus started the Catholic Church. History clearly states that all the rest were founded by some enlightenment inspired heretic.

Okay I'm done ranting, too.

[Budge]

its not about the Catholic church and who follows the Pope, its about who is truly born again and is a child of God.

The problem here is the Catholic Church makes it all about their institution and ignores Jesus teaching that his kingdom was NOT of THIS WORLD.

Could there be a few saved Catholic out there? Sure, I was saved and in the Catholic Church for a few weeks;)...before I left. the Holy Spirit calls you out.

But once someone has put their total faith and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation instead of Eucharist, sacraments, Pope, purgatory and their own works, they cease to be a Catholic.

[jeffpugh]

How do you KNOW? You have no idea what goes on in the Church. Don't even pretend to know. I know and understand and try and emphasise Jesus every day. So do the priests of my diocese, my bishop (who loves young people and knows we are the ones who must carry on the message of Christ to the world). We are not of this world. We are not bound by a book, but we are bound by Christ because we are his bride. Praise Jesus for giving us the gift of his sacrifice. I'm totally Catholic and I totally love Christ. There is no way you can tell me otherwise. There is no way you can tell my priests otherwise and there is no way you can tell my bishop or Bene otherwise. Read his book. You'll see that they didn't chose him as pope because they got bored and decided over a nice cup of coffee. Wake up! Wake up! Repent! I am sick of your pecimism and slander! The devil thrives on hatred. He thrives on your words, and he thrives on the fact that you stir people up by unjustly condemning this institution that is bigger than you know, older than you've experience and wiser than all. In fact, it's so wise, the world finds it foolish... clinging to it's old things and believing in a God.

[genxcathedra]

I don't know about Peter Kreeft. I think he is for a gathering of all Christians in a common prayer service. Catholic Doctors, whose writings get a tradition with a small "t" when it goes against modern leanings, say "No" to that--and for a good reason. Many Catholics don't know their Faith or are uncertain of its supernatural protection against formal changes to the Faith that would be heretical. Thus, they can be easier swayed by persistant and persuasive Protestants who do the number on us we should be doing on them (except those tactics of bashing or any other underhanded methods that some do). But, we all got to get together in each others' services, hold hands and feel alright as Christians. Unfortunately, the Evangelical Protestants and those evangelicals of the religion of atheistic scientists are prevailing as we lose Catholics to them, Buddhism, atheistic science or Islam (all of whom did not update themselves as to banalize their art and other symbols, which can affect minds even though they are not the basis of religion).



[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1360428' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:33 PM']How do you KNOW? You have no idea what goes on in the Church. Don't even pretend to know. I know and understand and try and emphasise Jesus every day. So do the priests of my diocese, my bishop (who loves young people and knows we are the ones who must carry on the message of Christ to the world). We are not of this world. We are not bound by a book, but we are bound by Christ because we are his bride. Praise Jesus for giving us the gift of his sacrifice. I'm totally Catholic and I totally love Christ. There is no way you can tell me otherwise. There is no way you can tell my priests otherwise and there is no way you can tell my bishop or Bene otherwise. Read his book. You'll see that they didn't chose him as pope because they got bored and decided over a nice cup of coffee. Wake up! Wake up! Repent! I am sick of your pecimism and slander! The devil thrives on hatred. He thrives on your words, and he thrives on the fact that you stir people up by unjustly condemning this institution that is bigger than you know, older than you've experience and wiser than all. In fact, it's so wise, the world finds it foolish... clinging to it's old things and believing in a God.[/quote]

[theophane]

[quote name='genxcathedra' post='1404708' date='Oct 17 2007, 11:48 PM']I don't know about Peter Kreeft. I think he is for a gathering of all Christians in a common prayer service.[/quote]

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but Peter Kreeft is one of the most devout and orthodox Catholics I've ever met. He was my seminary professor for 3 years, teaching in classes of 2-4 guys. I've talked many things over with him (heck, he's beat the carp out of me at ping pong no less than 50 times, to boot ) and the man is no syncretist. As a wild guess, I would imagine that Dr. Kreeft may have been supporting some sort of prayer service for ecumenism, which JPII was highly supportive of as well. Praying with those of others faiths is very important, and shows the kind of respect that Catholics are called upon to show.

And for whomever was wondering, Dr. Kreeft was a Calvinist of the Dutch Reform Church until college.

Peace,

Theophane